What tropes in science fiction annoy you?

[Nerys Myk]

1)The English spoke French back then.

The ruling class spoke French, though even that was changing in the 15th Century. The lower classes spoke English.

2)The French language has changed a lot since that time and would be almost completely incomprehensible to the French viewers themselves and so it would have to be subtitled to the French audience as well.

Has it? I was under the impression the change wasn't that great.

 

[Discofan]

The ruling class spoke French, though even that was changing in the 15th Century. The lower classes spoke English.

The people interrogating Joan Of Arc were part of the ruling class.

Has it? I was under the impression the change wasn't that great.

Almost as much as English has changed since Beowulf. Very few people can read Beowulf in it's original tongue.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The people interrogating Joan Of Arc were part of the ruling class

Which is different than the blanket term "The English".

Almost as much as English has changed since Beowulf. Very few people can read Beowulf in it's original tongue.

Beowulf was written in Old English and dates back to somewhere between the 8th and 11th Century. Middle French dates from the 14th Century. The difference between Middle French and Modern French are probably not as great as the ones between Old English and Modern English.

 

[Discofan]

Which is different than the blanket term "The English".

Ok.

Beowulf was written in Old English and dates back to somewhere between the 8th and 11th Century. Middle French dates from the 14th Century. The difference between Middle French and Modern French are probably not as great as the ones between Old English and Modern English.

Not exactly. The French has changed a lot faster than the English.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Not exactly. The French has changed a lot faster than the English.

Have you ever read Beowulf?

Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning.
ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,
geong in geardum, þone god sende
folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat
þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,
wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;
Beowulf wæs breme blæd wide sprang,
Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.
Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme,
þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen
wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume,
leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal
in mægþa gehwære man geþeon.
Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile
felahror feran on frean wære.

vs Le Roman de Gillion de Trazegnies

Comme il soit ainsi que environ a deux ans je traversoye par la conte de haynnau, en laquelle conte a par [fol. 9v] cy devant et ancoure a de present de la noble et vaillant chevallerie comme par les anciennes histoires est apparent, entre lesquelles au passer que je fis par une abbaye assez ancienne ou je veys trois tumbes haultes eslevees laquelle sappelle labbaye de lolive. Et pour ce que des ma jennesse ay este desirant et suis de scavoir les nobles et haulz fais advenuz par les vertueulz et vaillans hommes du temps passe moy estant en icelle abbaye enquis et demanday les noms de iceulx trespassez quy desoubz les trois tombes gesoient. Racompte me fut par labbe et couvent de leans que les corps des deux nobles et vaillans dames et leur mary ou mylieu delles estoit illec en sepulture. Leurs noms et surnoms me dirent lesquelz je veiz par escript alentour de leurs tombes. Et quant jeuz veu et leu lepitaffe diceulx trespassez je sceuz que le tresvaillant chevallier messire Gillion de Trasignies y gesoit en sepulture ou milieu de deux nobles et vertueuses dames en son vivant ses compaignes et espouses dont lune avoit este fille au souldan de babilonne pourquoy je ne me peuz trop esmerveillier. Adont je requis tresinstamment a labbe et couvent dillec que plus amplement me voulsissent racompter comment celluy seigneur de Trasignies avoit eu a femme la fille du souldan [fol. 10] de Babilonne et comment il lavoit amenee ou paijs de Haynnau. Adont le bon abe, voyant le grant desir que javoie den scavoir la verite, par lun de ses religieux me fist apporter ung petit livre en parchemin escript dune moult ancienne lettre et caduce en langue ytalienne. Et quant jeuz leu et bien entendu la matiere quy me sembla noble,

I can probably pick out more Modern French words in the latter than I can Modern English words in the former. I don' even speak French.

 

[JD]

Data could make a connection with the computer that would be about a billion times faster than speech or keyboard typing... It makes no sense to have him type KB no matter how "fast" or ask questions of the computer.

It makes even less sense to have the Doctor interact that way since he's a PROGRAM INSIDE THE COMPUTER!! Making him ask questions of it is just idiotic.

The thing to keep in mind here is that movies and TV are a visual and audio medium, so when it comes to things like this their are going to want to go with the look or sound the most thing, and a character typing away at a keyboard like crazy or verbally asking a computer a question is going a lot more interesting then just having them make the computer do it instantly.
As for the whole language thing, they're also going to want to go with whatever is going to be the easiest for the most people to understand the quickest. To put it bluntly, they want to make sure a complete moron can understand it as easily as a genius. Yes, this does often mean they have to sacrifice realism a lot of the time, but when it comes to mainstream shows and movies, they are aways going to pick what will get them the most viewers over what is the most believable.

 

[Greg Cox]

(And I always thought it was very ironic that a DISNEY film, of all things, was the one to literally show the bad guy end up in hell.)

As a point of trivia, THE BLACK HOLE was the very first Disney film to be rated PG. Believe it or not, that was actually controversial back in '79. I remember Letters to the Editor in the local paper being scandalized by this. A PG-rated Disney film? What was the world coming to?

Although the PG rating was for language ("hell" and "damn") and a touch of blood. Demonic imagery had been part of Disney films long before that. Remember the Devil presiding over the satanic revels in FANTASIA? Or Malificent in the original SLEEPING BEAUTY invoking "all the powers of Hell!" Heck, even the Scarecrow of Romney Marsh was said to "ride from the Gates of Hell" and that was on TV back in the sixties.

That bad guys went to hell was not controversial back in the day. It was practically taken for granted . . . .

 

[Nerys Myk]

As a point of trivia, THE BLACK HOLE was the very first Disney film to be rated PG. Believe it or not, that was actually controversial back in '79. I remember Letters to the Editor in the local paper being scandalized by this. A PG-rated Disney film? What was the world coming to?

Although the PG rating was for language ("hell" and "damn") and a touch of blood. Demonic imagery had been part of Disney films long before that. Remember the Devil presiding over the satanic revels in FANTASIA? Or Malificent in the original SLEEPING BEAUTY invoking "all the powers of Hell!" Heck, even the Scarecrow of Romney Marsh was said to "ride from the Gates of Hell" and that was on TV back in the sixties.

You can be from Hell or of Hell, but can't go to Hell.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Another thing that gets me about The Black Hole's ending:

Maximilian Schell ends up...in Maximilian’s shell.

 

[Discofan]

Have you ever read Beowulf?

vs Le Roman de Gillion de Trazegnies
I can probably pick out more Modern French words in the latter than I can Modern English words in the former. I don' even speak French.

I disagree, I am familiar with texts in Middle French and yours has definitely been modernized. Some of the words have a modern spelling which you won't find before the 18th century or later. Plus the text doesn't have any of the obsolete words that Old French was strewn with like "onques" for example which is totally absent of this rather long text.


If that text was read at a normal pace, even as presented, it'd be completely unintelligible without subtitles. Hell, "Les Visiteurs" which is a French Movie and a comedy, has a beginning in a language that's only partly medieval (for color) and yet it's SUBTITLED. Imagine if it was in the actual tongue!

 

[Nerys Myk]

I disagree, I am familiar with texts in Middle French and yours has definitely been modernized. Some of the words have a modern spelling which you won't find before the 18th century or later. Plus the text doesn't have any of the obsolete words that Old French was strewn with like "onques" for example which is totally absent of this rather long text.


If that text was read at a normal pace, even as presented, it'd be completely unintelligible without subtitles. Hell, "Les Visiteurs" which is a French Movie and a comedy, has a beginning in a language that's only partly medieval (for color) and yet it's SUBTITLED. Imagine if it was in the actual tongue!

I copied it from here.

 

[Discofan]

I copied it from here.

Here's a text that I studied in school but not in the original tongue (texts are often modernized or they would be too hard for people who are not specialists):

Dictes-moy où, n’en quel pays,
Est Flora, la belle Romaine ;
Archipiada, ne Thaïs,
Qui fut sa cousine germaine ;
Echo, parlant quand bruyt on maine
Dessus rivière ou sus estan,
Qui beauté eut trop plus qu’humaine ?
Mais où sont les neiges d’antan !

Où est la très sage Heloïs,
Pour qui fut chastré et puis moyne
Pierre Esbaillart à Sainct-Denys ?
Pour son amour eut cest essoyne.
Semblablement, où est la royne
Qui commanda que Buridan
Fust jetté en ung sac en Seine ?
Mais où sont les neiges d’antan !

La royne Blanche comme ung lys,
Qui chantoit à voix de sereine ;
Berthe au grand pied, Bietris, Allys ;
Harembourges, qui tint le Mayne,
Et Jehanne, la bonne Lorraine,
Qu’Anglois bruslèrent à Rouen ;
Où sont-ilz, Vierge souveraine ?…
Mais où sont les neiges d’antan !

ENVOI

Prince, n’enquerez de sepmaine
Où elles sont, ne de cest an,
Qu’à ce refrain ne vous remaine :
Mais où sont les neiges d’antan !

François Villon, 1458-9

Note that this is not in actual medieval language and yet it's close to the text you've presented!!

 

[Tenacity]

Data could make a connection with the computer that would be about a billion times faster than speech or keyboard typing... It makes no sense to have him type KB no matter how "fast" or ask questions of the computer.

Data aspired to be Human, Humans either talk to the computer or use a keyboard. He could type fast, but didn't always. Probably talk fast too. In a serious enough emergency he probably would directly access, but short of a emergency he would act as Human as possible.

Even if alone.

 

[Discofan]

Data aspired to be Human, Humans either talk to the computer or use a keyboard. He could type fast (probably talk fast too), and in a emergency directly access, but short of a emergency he would act as Human as possible. Even if alone.

Data is a walking talking contradiction, he aspires to be human (because his creator instilled that in him) but he does lots of things that aren't human at all! Like having the strength of ten human beings, being incapable of doing contractions, having a skin of a bizarre color, not needing air, being able to sink or float at will, not being able to speak in the vernacular, replacing words in known expressions with more improbable ones, no being able to whistle, but being to play an instrument the same way as a known musician (which definitely isn't human), and being able to listen to dozens of different songs at the same time... etc. I mean if the goal was to make him as human as possible then his creator was just crazy or drunk when he put him together!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Data is a walking talking contradiction, he aspires to be human (because his creator instilled that in him) but he does lots of things that aren't human at all! Like having the strength of ten human beings, being incapable of doing contractions, having a skin of a bizarre color, not needing air, being able to sink or float at will, not being able to speak in the vernacular, replacing words in known expressions with more improbable ones, no being able to whistle, but being to play an instrument the same way as a known musician (which definitely isn't human), and being able to listen to dozens of different songs at the same time... etc. I mean if the goal was to make him as human as possible then his creator was just crazy or drunk when he put him together!

When did Soong ever say his goal was for Data to be as human as possible?

Being more like humans is Data's goal - and like many individual's life goals, it's a bit fuzzy around the edges in that he clearly doesn't wish to give up every single thing about himself that's unique in order to accomplish it.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Hero powerups that take longer then the actual fighting moves after the power up. Same for villains.

In other words power ups that last so long you could monologue.

Doomsday weapons that take so long to power up that the bad guy has to give a speech. yet the good guys don't ever, ever take advantage of the delay.

 

[Discofan]

Hero powerups that take longer then the actual fighting moves after the power up. Same for villains.

In other words power ups that last so long you could monologue.

Doomsday weapons that take so long to power up that the bad guy has to give a speech. yet the good guys don't ever, ever take advantage of the delay.

You mean like the " thalaron-radiation generator" in Nemesis?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

You mean like the " thalaron-radiation generator" in Nemesis?

That's a good example

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Funny story: I once wrote a young-adult book in which I described a robot as "a walking Erector Set." My young, twenty-something editor informed me that not only would today's kids not get that reference, but that she'd had to look it up on the internet. Ouch!

Yeah, I'm 36 and the only reason why I know what an Erector Set is is because of that one sequence in The Sandlot and that's set in the 1960s.

The only story like this I can think of that actually addresses the air issue is the DS9 episode One Little Ship, when Dax, O'Brien, and Bashir get shrunk. At one point the shrunk Bashir and O'Brien go to work inside the Defiant's computer system, and they specifically mention how they beamed in air with the appropriate sized molecules so they can breath.

I also assume that's why Ant-Man wears a helmet, so it can process air molecules properly for him to breathe.

Doomsday weapons that take so long to power up that the bad guy has to give a speech. yet the good guys don't ever, ever take advantage of the delay.

On the plus side, it also means that, on Power Rangers, the bad guys never attack in the middle of a Zord transformation. Fair's fair!

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

On the plus side, it also means that, on Power Rangers, the bad guys never attack in the middle of a Zord transformation. Fair's fair!

Ooh good one. Yeah always wondered what the bad guys actually do during the delay.