Should they have used Cavit instead of Jonas as the traitor?

[Turd Ferguson]

I was thinking it as awfully convenient that most of the people opposed to Tom Paris joining the expedition to find Commander Chakotay died in the displacement wave or fell in line with Captain Janeway at the end of Caretaker. I thought it would have been interesting if they had kept one of his detractors alive (at least for a season or two). They couldn't have kept Dr. Fitzgerald, because he had to die so the EMH could be a main character, and Stadi had to go to make Paris the helm officer. So, that obviously leaves Lt. Commander Cavit.

I'd leave the end of the episode the same, with Janeway choosing Chakotay as her first officer, seeing he's the Maquis commander (and a higher rank than Cavit). I thought it would be cool seeing a Starfleet officer taking issue with this and actively working to undermine the captain, going so far as to send data to the Kazon in an attempt to mutiny against Janeway. Obviously, this would have the same result as what happened with Neelix killing Michael Jonas, but instead it would be a character we've seen for a couple of seasons (instead of a character they pulled out of their asses a couple episodes before).

Thoughts?

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Interesting scenario but one thing is sure for me, I would have liked to see more of Lt Comm. Cavit as Janeway's First Officer. It would have interesting to compare him and Chakotay in this fonction and his relationship with the crew, especially after Janeway invited the Maquis on board (we saw his disdain toward Paris, it would have been interesting to see his reaction towards Chakotay and his friends).

Same for the original doctor before the EMH took the position.

 

[Kilana2]

For me Cavit was more interesting than the original Doctor. The original Doctor was even more hostile towards Tom than Cavit. I'd like to have seen interactions between Tom and Cavit. I can't see Cavit as the traitor, though.
And that Stadi had to go was most unfortunate, too. I'm not a Harry Kim hater, but I would prefer Stadi over Kim as a regular character. They could have given her another job.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

The Cavit thing to me seemed the most interesting. For one, it'd have to make him a little salty to be passed off on a field promotion to full grade Commander to be given to Maquis terrorist Chakotay. Not only that, he's got a captain willing to give out officer rankings to people that didn't put in the time at the Academy (B'Elanna Torres, chief engineer), or booted out of the Academy (Paris/Locarno) instead of considering qualified Starfleet officers like Lt. Carey.

I think that would have given him plenty of motivation to move against Janeway and feed information to the Kazon in an attempt to gain access to command of Voyager.

Hell, you could even bring him back as a recurring villain. Maybe not have Neelix kill him, but reveal him serving under Captain Ransom after having been picked up by the U.S.S. Equinox after Voyager's departure from Kazon space.

 

[Refuge]

Hell, you could even bring him back as a recurring villain. Maybe not have Neelix kill him, but reveal him serving under Captain Ransom after having been picked up by the U.S.S. Equinox after Voyager's departure from Kazon space.

That's a little bit inspired

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That argument applies better to Carey than Cavit. If Cavit survived it wouldn't have made sense for Chakotay to become first officer, the existing first officer wouldn't be demoted.

I agree it would have been an interesting storyline to see a few Starfleet officers rebel against Starfleet principles stranded alone in the DQ.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Technically, Cavit wouldn't have been demoted, since he holds a lower rank than Chakotay. Maybe there could have been a new character that was initially the first officer that dies when the Caretaker brings them to the DQ, then Cavit is the acting XO during the mission where they find Neelix and search for Harry and B'Elanna. Then, at the end, Cavit is passed up in favor of Chakotay.

 

[Megadoomer]

Nope. I think the story was right the way they made it.

 

[Catarina]

He seemed too dry and uninteresting. That was probably intenational to pave the way for Maquis storyline which they sadly barely tapped into anyway.

 

[Megadoomer]

I kinda agree with Black Cat about the Marquis story not getting any traction.

Jonas was definitely someone to purge from the cast. And his legacy is dying at the hands of Neelix the badass...

Wait, what?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

There's also the storytelling issue there. It's the year 1995, and if Cavit is introduced as the XO, everybody will assume he's a main character, and if he's not in the credits, that will be a dead giveaway.

I still can't see Janeway removing somebody from the XO spot. Remember Carey had not been officially appointed chief engineer when B'elana was given the job, he was just the heir apparent.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I was thinking it as awfully convenient that most of the people opposed to Tom Paris joining the expedition to find Commander Chakotay died in the displacement wave or fell in line with Captain Janeway at the end of Caretaker. I thought it would have been interesting if they had kept one of his detractors alive (at least for a season or two). They couldn't have kept Dr. Fitzgerald, because he had to die so the EMH could be a main character, and Stadi had to go to make Paris the helm officer. So, that obviously leaves Lt. Commander Cavit.

I'd leave the end of the episode the same, with Janeway choosing Chakotay as her first officer, seeing he's the Maquis commander (and a higher rank than Cavit). I thought it would be cool seeing a Starfleet officer taking issue with this and actively working to undermine the captain, going so far as to send data to the Kazon in an attempt to mutiny against Janeway. Obviously, this would have the same result as what happened with Neelix killing Michael Jonas, but instead it would be a character we've seen for a couple of seasons (instead of a character they pulled out of their asses a couple episodes before).

Thoughts?

Your argument could have been valid IF any Starfleet officer would have ever shown even a beginning of rebellion against Janeway's decisions, especially the ones towards the Maquis, but if you look at the whole series, you will note that Starfleet crew has wisely lined up behind its leader and never said anything bad (although voicing their anger and frustration would have been understandable). And the ONLY time where they said something was about B'Elena Torres and even there, it was much more about her ill-tempered nature and rude attitude (cf to Carey she has punched, breaking his nose when both disagreed) than Janeway's choice for the position of Chief Engineer.
-> Lt Joe Carey, who was the primarily concerned, didn't react violently to her nomination and I bet that Commander Cavit would have made much because well, "we do not question (mess with) the choices of captain". What doesn't mean her choices must welcome warmly (cf to the reaction of the officers when Tom Paris arrived on board).
.
What is funny to notice, is that both Janeway and Chakotay seemed to have the loyalty and respect of their respective crews while in the fact, it seems to me that only Janeway had a true control and obedience from her (Starfleet), while this is Chakotay who sustained several hard knocks in his leadership with Tuvok who was on Janeway's duty when he spied on the Val Jean ; with Seska and Jonas, who not only betrayed his trust but plotted against Janeway/Voyager and of course Suder, who acted dangerously, killing a Starfleet officer under the influence of dementia (btw, if Chakotay had warned the Chief of Security - not necessarely in the beginning but when things where more "smooth" between them-, of Suder's dangerosity*, that could have been easily avoided but well...!).
In short, I'd say that Chakotay's crew was composed of people whose the total allegiance was seriously questionnable and some of them easily fooled him (although I think he didn't care about Jonas and Suder). He was lucky that Darby didn't react to his punch & kept obeying him afterwards because this "officer" showed during Tuvok's training how to federate some other Maquis around him!

* He even admit being afraid of Suder who was uncontrollable.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Your argument could have been valid IF any Starfleet officer would have ever shown even a beginning of rebellion against Janeway's decisions, especially the ones towards the Maquis, but if you look at the whole series, you will note that Starfleet crew has wisely lined up behind its leader and never said anything bad (although voicing their anger and frustration would have been understandable). And the ONLY time where they said something was about B'Elena Torres and even there, it was much more about her ill-tempered nature and rude attitude (cf to Carey she has punched, breaking his nose when both disagreed) than Janeway's choice for the position of Chief Engineer.

I would argue some of the Starfleet crew did rebel against Janeway. Remember, in Prime Factors Janeway is unable to trade for the trajector technology, something about violating the Prime Directive. Against orders, a hodgepodge group of Maquis AND Starfleet (B'Elanna, Seska and Kim) team up to violate her orders and get the technology themselves. It is only when attempting to transport down they are discovered by Tuvok and HE does the exchange himself.

Also, in Resolutions, the defiant Ensign Harold Kim comes damn near close to mutiny in an attempt to get Tuvok to turn the ship around and go back for Janeway and Chakotay.

I'm sure there's other examples (I can't think of any right off), but, no, Voyager's Starfleet crew could be rebellious when the plot called for it and aren't as squeaky clean as some may believe

 

[Gabriel]

Your argument could have been valid IF any Starfleet officer would have ever shown even a beginning of rebellion against Janeway's decisions, especially the ones towards the Maquis, but if you look at the whole series, you will note that Starfleet crew has wisely lined up behind its leader and never said anything bad (although voicing their anger and frustration would have been understandable). And the ONLY time where they said something was about B'Elena Torres and even there, it was much more about her ill-tempered nature and rude attitude (cf to Carey she has punched, breaking his nose when both disagreed) than Janeway's choice for the position of Chief Engineer.
-> Lt Joe Carey, who was the primarily concerned, didn't react violently to her nomination and I bet that Commander Cavit would have made much because well, "we do not question (mess with) the choices of captain". What doesn't mean her choices must welcome warmly (cf to the reaction of the officers when Tom Paris arrived on board).
.
What is funny to notice, is that both Janeway and Chakotay seemed to have the loyalty and respect of their respective crews while in the fact, it seems to me that only Janeway had a true control and obedience from her (Starfleet), while this is Chakotay who sustained several hard knocks in his leadership with Tuvok who was on Janeway's duty when he spied on the Val Jean ; with Seska and Jonas, who not only betrayed his trust but plotted against Janeway/Voyager and of course Suder, who acted dangerously, killing a Starfleet officer under the influence of dementia (btw, if Chakotay had warned the Chief of Security - not necessarely in the beginning but when things where more "smooth" between them-, of Suder's dangerosity*, that could have been easily avoided but well...!).
In short, I'd say that Chakotay's crew was composed of people whose the total allegiance was seriously questionnable and some of them easily fooled him (although I think he didn't care about Jonas and Suder). He was lucky that Darby didn't react to his punch & kept obeying him afterwards because this "officer" showed during Tuvok's training how to federate some other Maquis around him!

* He even admit being afraid of Suder who was uncontrollable.

Interesting but there is little evidence that Chakotay was a full commander. I’m pretty sure he was just a LCDR. It happen before: Sisko during his Saratoga time, Spock for parts of tos, and the Odyssey first officer.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Interesting but there is little evidence that Chakotay was a full commander. I’m pretty sure he was just a LCDR. It happen before: Sisko during his Saratoga time, Spock for parts of tos, and the Odyssey first officer.

Gabriel, it is not because I say Commander Chakotay that I think he has this rank.
In fact, I believe that after to have decided to resign Starfleet to join the Maquis, no matter his reason, he would have never been allowed to wear a Starfleet uniform again and still less, getting a rank. The fact that he was promoted Commander while he was only a Lt Commander before his resignation was crazy but, 1) Janeway expected that all members of her crew wore a Starfleet uniform, including members of the Maquis in order to surely install a sense of cohesion, BUT too, to remind everybody, including Chakota and his crew who was the boss on this mission "Coming Home"). 2) As for his rank of Commander, Janeway had to give him the higher rank possible (below Captain, of course) to allow him to hold the position of First Officer.

In the end, her choices were clearly tactical but make no mistake, even if she implicitly recognized Chakotay's experience in command, for him, the facts reminded that with the loss of his ship and his command, it was simply the loss of power and control. That's why I think that this situation had quite frustrated him on occasion and when the opportunities presented themselves to him to regain power and control in Scorpion and Equinox fro example, he took full advantage of them!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Cavit? The dumbass who thinks it's a good idea to go running across the bridge in the middle of an attack? He'd be a worse XO than Chakotay.

 

[DonIago]

To me, the principal problem of Cavit being the traitor is that the traitor needs to be someone with a connection to Seska to make the arc work, unless you want to remove Seska as well, which then raises other plot issues. Cavit was Starfleet but Seska wasn't just presumed Maquis but actually Cardassian. Even if we assume that Cavit would resent losing ground to Chakotay, I have a hard time believing he'd go so far as to form an alliance with a Cardassian he didn't even know previously.

I think a better option might have been to make "Equinox" a first-season story and have Cavit sympathize more with Ransom's crew than with Janeway's. Give him a slow burn of increasing frustration with the situation on Voyager, and then he and Ransom can die together trying to redeem themselves at the end, or Cavit can be rescued but severely demoted, or he can be killed by the aliens, or what-not.

 

[Gabriel]

Gabriel, it is not because I say Commander Chakotay that I think he has this rank.
In fact, I believe that after to have decided to resign Starfleet to join the Maquis, no matter his reason, he would have never been allowed to wear a Starfleet uniform again and still less, getting a rank. The fact that he was promoted Commander while he was only a Lt Commander before his resignation was crazy but, 1) Janeway expected that all members of her crew wore a Starfleet uniform, including members of the Maquis in order to surely install a sense of cohesion, BUT too, to remind everybody, including Chakota and his crew who was the boss on this mission "Coming Home"). 2) As for his rank of Commander, Janeway had to give him the higher rank possible (below Captain, of course) to allow him to hold the position of First Officer.

In the end, her choices were clearly tactical but make no mistake, even if she implicitly recognized Chakotay's experience in command, for him, the facts reminded that with the loss of his ship and his command, it was simply the loss of power and control. That's why I think that this situation had quite frustrated him on occasion and when the opportunities presented themselves to him to regain power and control in Scorpion and Equinox fro example, he took full advantage of them!

Again not true because lieutenant commander’s in Star Trek can be first officers. So in reality she had no reason to promote him since everybody else was below Lieutenant Commander. Unless of course you count the Tuvok rank gaff as him being a LDCR and then getting demoted for the events in prime factor or what ever. Other than that I like your story idea. More interesting than what they put on the show. In fact in think they change the show runner on voyager that was on TNG and DS9 and he was really successful for some one else.

 

[Lynx]

No, Jonas was perfect as the traitor.

however, I would have liked to see at least one Starfleet member of the crew flipping out and doing something nasty, not only Maquis members.

OK, Starfleet members are highly trained but there must have been some who couldn't stand the pressure of being stranded 70 000 light years from federation space.

In one of the early Voyager books there is actually a starfleet member who do have some mental problems. There should have been someone in the series too.

 

[Gabriel]

No, Jonas was perfect as the traitor.

however, I would have liked to see at least one Starfleet member of the crew flipping out and doing something nasty, not only Maquis members.

OK, Starfleet members are highly trained but there must have been some who couldn't stand the pressure of being stranded 70 000 light years from federation space.

In one of the early Voyager books there are actually a starfleet member who do have some mental problems. There should have been someone in the series too.

Definitely. I don’t believe every single starfleet crew members was will to put there life on the line for technology.