Is it possible that (Mirror) Lorca fiddled with Section 31?
Section 31
- Thread starter StarMan
- Start date
I'd think the veteran of intrigue would run rings around the silly Section, making some use of its resources if need be, but not giving back in the spirit of Christmas or anything...
But yes, Lorca having Black Badges aboard his ship might be telling. Why not draft the help of the organization, if his general plan was to create the intimidating impression of shady things that nobody should attempt to take a closer look at?
Timo Saloniemi
But yes, Lorca having Black Badges aboard his ship might be telling. Why not draft the help of the organization, if his general plan was to create the intimidating impression of shady things that nobody should attempt to take a closer look at?
Timo Saloniemi
It's pretty obvious that Section 31 now turned from this super secret Foundation-but-evil inspired conspiracy wet dream to Star Treks NSA or S.H.I.E.L.D. - a regular shady spy agency way overstepping it's boundaries.
It's actually a far more realistic (and fitting) version than the original idea IMO. If you enter the Star Trek universe in 10 years, S31 simply will be the shady secret service, and the DS9-episodes the odd ones out there.
And I generally like the idea of having a shady service even in the Utopian Star Trek service - not as the "hard men making hard choices" - but simply a depiction of realpolitik clashing with Utopia (preferably at the borders of said Utopia), and old habits dying hard. That being said: Considering the original creative starting point of S31, that this agency become "the" spy agency kinda' leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.
It's actually a far more realistic (and fitting) version than the original idea IMO. If you enter the Star Trek universe in 10 years, S31 simply will be the shady secret service, and the DS9-episodes the odd ones out there.
And I generally like the idea of having a shady service even in the Utopian Star Trek service - not as the "hard men making hard choices" - but simply a depiction of realpolitik clashing with Utopia (preferably at the borders of said Utopia), and old habits dying hard. That being said: Considering the original creative starting point of S31, that this agency become "the" spy agency kinda' leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.
I don't like the idea of the Federation having a regular shady spy organization. I can go watch 24 or dozens of other shows that have done it.
Maybe the DS9 S31 was just going through a phase. Maybe they, for a short time, had overzealous leadership.
How does a "Utopian Society" deal with the likes of the Romulan Tal Shiar & the Cardassian Obsidian Order constantly 'hacking' away at it?
I'd find it extremely difficult to believe that said Society would not have a CIA of its own.
Which I believe, is what Section-31 was meant to be from the start of its inception with the Federation's beginnings.
That it got twisted and is shown being used for certain underhanded manipulations, just says to me that Humans in two or three hundred years, still are not perfect even though they strive to be.
It also lines up as a perfect allegory of how things have been and are being done within our own government...
(and truly, the Trump Administration is just as bad at keeping their underhanded dealings a secret as has been depicted with Trek's Section-31)
... another analog which Star Trek has been employing since the days of The Original Series.
I wonder what the equivalent would be for the Klingons?
I guess it would end up being each House having their own take on it like the Duras Sisters.
Knowing what we know about the Klingons so far, it truly amazes me that they became an EMPIRE, never mind a thriving society.
I'd find it extremely difficult to believe that said Society would not have a CIA of its own.
Which I believe, is what Section-31 was meant to be from the start of its inception with the Federation's beginnings.
That it got twisted and is shown being used for certain underhanded manipulations, just says to me that Humans in two or three hundred years, still are not perfect even though they strive to be.
It also lines up as a perfect allegory of how things have been and are being done within our own government...
(and truly, the Trump Administration is just as bad at keeping their underhanded dealings a secret as has been depicted with Trek's Section-31)
... another analog which Star Trek has been employing since the days of The Original Series.
I wonder what the equivalent would be for the Klingons?
I guess it would end up being each House having their own take on it like the Duras Sisters.
Knowing what we know about the Klingons so far, it truly amazes me that they became an EMPIRE, never mind a thriving society.
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There's a difference between an intelligence agency and a genocide squad. I have no issue with Starfleet operating an intelligence branch, the is nothing "anti utopian" about that, as when operated properly with proper oversight and limits they are a perfectly legitimate branch of government. Intelligence is the backbone of security. If DSC were including Starfleet Intelligence, or some cool alternate name they came up with, I would not be moaning.
This point is one that makes more sense. I struggle with Starfleet not having an intelligence agency, but, as you describe, S31 should not be it. We see Kirk and Spock being capable of espionage when it serves their purpose ("The Enterprise Incident") so Starfleet isn't above such dealings. So, looking at it from this point of view I do wonder if S31 is necessary.
Now, from a story point of view, I could see this being the place where S31 oversteps their mandate and Starfleet and the Federation start to clean house, resulting in some of the more extreme elements of the organization being pushed to the shadows, and Starfleet Intelligence taking a more active role.
Well, as a dramatic device you could leave it or keep it. Section 31 had two good DS9 episodes and then it went stale. It turned into something that was just trotted out if it was needed to pivot a plot.
For me though, a Section 31 is something of an inevitability if you grant that a Starfleet Intelligence is needed in the first instance. Starfleet Intelligence is engaged in covert operations and it's not that big a leap that such a clever organisation could hoodwink the silly politicians who try to regulate it.
This is kind of the horrific underbelly of a mass technological society - it's intuitive for the spooks to become a state of their own.
For me though, a Section 31 is something of an inevitability if you grant that a Starfleet Intelligence is needed in the first instance. Starfleet Intelligence is engaged in covert operations and it's not that big a leap that such a clever organisation could hoodwink the silly politicians who try to regulate it.
This is kind of the horrific underbelly of a mass technological society - it's intuitive for the spooks to become a state of their own.
Well Section 31's acts are not official sanctioned by the Federation.
I think the issue is even though Section 31 is realistic and frankly something like a Federation would need to become as powerful as it has become,is it better to go with the more idealistic but also I am thinking naive idea that something like the Federation could happen just on good intentions. It comes down to how much you care about the Roddenberry vision as conceived on TNG. Me I am more happy to look at a Trek as a better future but still with modern problems still around as opposed to them ore utopia view of the future.
For me I actually I started off like the utopia version better since TNG is what made me a fan of Trek in my senior year of high school and helped me deal with being depressed. Maybe now that I am 43 and older and I guess more cynical that doesn't quite work as much as it use to. Then again I have noticed through things like "Orville" and kind of liking stuff again that isn't all gritty and edgy but I still like gritty and edgy to so I am not sure if their is a wrong way to write Section 31 or pretend it was never created. In fact the very show it was created in "DS9" while kind of edgy actually feels like the more positve less edgy look at the world compared to stuff you see today. Section 31 is almost idealisitc in how even Sloan says people like Bashir are important and help make the Federation what it is instead of some dumb sucker who has been tricked by the system.
Jason
For me I actually I started off like the utopia version better since TNG is what made me a fan of Trek in my senior year of high school and helped me deal with being depressed. Maybe now that I am 43 and older and I guess more cynical that doesn't quite work as much as it use to. Then again I have noticed through things like "Orville" and kind of liking stuff again that isn't all gritty and edgy but I still like gritty and edgy to so I am not sure if their is a wrong way to write Section 31 or pretend it was never created. In fact the very show it was created in "DS9" while kind of edgy actually feels like the more positve less edgy look at the world compared to stuff you see today. Section 31 is almost idealisitc in how even Sloan says people like Bashir are important and help make the Federation what it is instead of some dumb sucker who has been tricked by the system.
Jason
I think a morally gray secret service works inside the Utopian Star Trek, as long as it's focused on the borders of said Utopia, both physically but also ideologically:
The Star Trek future isn't a perfect universe. It's an almost perfect universe inside the Federation. That means outside of it still lurks significant danger: From other species like Romualns and the Dominion, powerfull enemies like the Borg, to simply unknown weird shit like V'Ger and the Doomsday device. Any political power NEEDS intelligence on that!
It's just important for me that said intelligence isn't directed inwards, as in, say, the NSA is surveilling Americans inside the US. The Federation inside should be made up of better humans, without homegrown terrorists or political corruption. But it still has to deal with these things trickeling in from outside - uneasy allies, or new members, or just plain simple enemies of the system - and that's where a spy agency not only comes in handy, but is actually severely needed.
(Again: I just wish it wasn't S31, but "Starfleet Intelligence" or something).
The Federation had General order 24 - destroy a planet in TOS, genocide was never a problem
Majestic 13.
Washington's Spies.
Those two groups still fight in the streets like midlevel cartels.
Washington's Spies.
Those two groups still fight in the streets like midlevel cartels.
Mirror Section 31 should be as good as our Salvation Army, working in secret doing good in the evil Terran Empire, running an underground to free alien slaves
