Section 31
- Thread starter StarMan
- Start date
Not really. Art imitates life after all.
That's exactly how I see it, more realistic, especially since Federation adversaries like Romulans and Cardassians have similar organizations. Those who love the idealism of Federation and are disturbed by S31 should take comfort that S31 has not been portrayed as a good thing in Star trek. Main characters like Bashir and Sisko did their best to undermine and expose S31, to the point of even sharing information with Romulans.
Based on this trailer the main characters of Discovery view S31 simply as an intelligence organization, and it wouldn't surprise me if that's how S31 is used on the show. Wasn't it that way on ENT too?
Doesn't matter if they know or not. One or two 'bad seed' admirals (Leyton, Dougherty, Ross) or traumatised or ill-equipped commanders (Decker, Garth of Izar maybe?) in an organisation of tens of thousands is fine (well not fine but "ok") because they're not an institutional problem - when the story is done and dusted they're exposed as the bad guys and the systems of law and order and public accountability step in to see them pay for their crimes (ok, sometimes they just get blown up or killed cause it makes for better tv, but you get the sense that all things being equal they would be tried and convicted).
Section 31 is different though - because its implication is that the federation is basically a fascist police state run by a non democratic cabal of people willing to engage in extrajudicial murder, assassination and genocide - indeed, that peaceful society and the institutions of freedom and democracy wouldn't be able to exist without it, that they are fundamentally a front, a sham, and that Picard and all the others who believe in the federation, who 'don't know anything about what's going on'; are just drinking the cool-aid.
No
Not a admiral but PIcard was thinking about doing it in "I Borg" with using Hugh as a means of a invasive program that would kill all the Borg. Who knows it it would have worked or not.
Jason
And an admiral took him to task for not using it.
Just thought of another. Picard was going to wipe out the Nannites until Data allowed them to use his body to talk to them. Also if they ever find out holograms are real people like the EMH might argue then your talking about decades of legal slavery and you might even say that was the case with Data because they were willing to toss out his rights soon as it was convient first in "Measure of the Man" and then in the next season with Lal. PLus one episode has Picard say Starfleet would take him apart to see why he was lying which I guess is true when you see how Data took care of Lore,a living being, in the season 7 opener.
Jason
Jason
All this talk about Section 31. How about Sections 1-30?
Admirals, yes. And if this were just Admiral Cornwell feeling in the mood for a little genocide, I could let that slide. Starfleet Admirals contemplating genocide isn't all that surprising. However, this wasn't an evil Admiral pushing their own agenda. The genocide of the Klingons was an official operation authorized by the Federation Government.
I hear Section 23 is noted for knowing how to have fun.
Would you mind expanding a bit on why you think it's more 'realistic' this way? After all, this is fiction and rather soft science fiction at that, a setting where people routinely break the laws of physics to travel vast interstellar distances and instantaneously teleport between their spaceships and where alien species frequently look like people with forehead appliances
To me its pretty depressing that the idea of a government that doesn't engage in the murder of civilians and political opponents is seemingly more far fetched than the rest of this. That's not to say that starfleet shouldn't be presented as a semi-military organisation which occasionally engages in warfare and intelligence operations - but in star trek as in the real world these things are (or at least should be) beholden to civilian and judicial oversight and subject to the laws of war and rules of engagement. Section 31 has always explicitly been presented as operating outside these arrangements, with the sinister implication that such niceties are in fact only facilitated by these illegal actions. And yes, most of the time this has been framed by star trek as bad - but it still supports this paternalistic myth in society that these kind of actions actually aren't all that bad; that it's more 'realistic' that way, that illegal and immoral things are perfectly fine as long as they're in 'the greater good' (who's greater good one wonders?), that section 31 and others actually are the 'good guys' doing the dirty deeds that no one else wants to do but which 'must be done' (supposedly) to protect the naive chumps that believe in things like individual liberty and the rule of law.
This is the kind of argument I see embedded in your response about the 'realism' of section 31, and please forgive me if that's a misinterpretation, but I think its an extremely dangerous one. What we accept as realism in fiction necessarily dictates what we are willing to accept as the 'natural order' in the real world; and I for one am not particularly keen to legitimise the supposed necessity of a shadowy oligarchy committing genocide in my 'best interests'.
Section 31 wanted Bashir and O'Brien to cure Odo.
Bashir and O'Brien couldn't have cured Odo if Section 31 hadn't poisoned Odo.
Odo was cured, and the founders were placated, and no race was wiped out.
This had to have been Section 31s plan all along.
They pretended to be very Bad, so that Bashir could play at being very good.
Murdering the Founders wouldn't have finished the war.
The Vorta and the Jem'Hadar would have ripped the AQ into slivers.
Only a (manufactured) act of good faith was going to disengage the threat level.
Relying on the goodness of Bashir and O'Brien to save the day was Section 31's only plan all along.
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Thy did more than consider it - Picard got a HUGE dressing down from an Admiral for what he did in the TNG episode "I Borg" (and sorry, but I agreed with said Admiral). Pretty much, had it been any other Starfleet Captain...
I don't agree with this statement, any more than I agree with the racism that was portrayed in TOS is acceptable. The point of fiction, especially science fiction, is to shine a light on ideas and concepts that we might find reprehensible but need to be discussed any way. Calling shadowy government operations "realistic" is not tacit approval of that reality. It simply means we have places to work on.
Maybe not very optimistic, but it is very much where humanity is at.
I'm gonna give a hard disagree here.
If we look at Section 31's canonical appearances, the one persistent pattern that recurs throughout all their operations is how much they keep utterly backfiring on them.
Chronologically, Section 31's first appearance is in ENT's two-parter "Affliction/Divergence." In it, Section 31 allows Klingon Imperial Intelligence to abduct a Denobulan citizen, Phlox, from Earth, in the hopes that Phlox can develop a cure to the Augment virus and thereby prevent the destabilization of the Klingon Empire. They do this without contacting Phlox to see if he might just consent to traveling to Qu'Vat. Phlox is unable to cure the plague and instead a significant percentage of the Klingon race is infected with a modified Augment virus that causes them to lose their forehead ridges and bear grudges against Humans for decades--hardly a stabilizing result.
Their next major operation, chronologically, comes in the Kelvin Timeline's late 2250s in Star Trek Into Darkness. In that film, Section 31 revives Khan Noonien Sighn, intending to use him as an asset in their operation to provoke a war with the Klingon Empire that will grant their leader greater political power. Instead, Khan goes rogue and destroys a Section 31 facility beneath London, and then their attempts to provoke a war with the Klingons fails and they and their apparently illegally-built starship are exposed -- and half of San Francisco is destroyed in the process, likely killing thousands of Federation citizens.
Their next canonical appearance is in DS9's "Inquisition," in which they abduct Dr. Bashir and subject him to sleep deprivation and psychological torture in an attempt to determine if he is sufficiently loyal to the Federation to induct him into the organization. He refuses to be so inducted.
Their next operation, in 2375 in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," appears to be successful at first glance. Section 31 manipulates Bashir and Romulan Senator Cretak to remove her from power and place an asset they had turned, Koval, Chair of the Tal Shiar, onto the Continuing Committee (which is responsible for confirming new Praetors). They do this because Koval is (they believe) loyal to them, whereas Cretak is loyal to Romulus's best interests. And yet -- the entire Romulan Senate and Praetor are assassinated just four years later by Shinzon of Remus, who then promptly attacks the Enterprise and tries to attack Earth. There is no indication that Koval is even still alive; either he is dead and Section 31 has lost its supposed mole at the head of the Tal Shiar, or Koval allowed a man to come to power who then tried to attack the Federation. Either way, this renders their operation to remove Cretak and place Koval onto the Continuing Committee a failure.
Their final canonical appearance comes later in 2375 in "Extreme Measures." In the Final Chapter arc, we learned that Section 31 had infected Odo with an anti-Changeling virus in 2372 during his trip to Earth, and that he had infected the Great Link inadvertently, as part of Section 31's attempt to commit genocide against the Founders. Not only did their genocide attempt fail, but it also had the exact opposite of its intended effect: Instead of weakening the Dominion, it led to the Founders fortifying their positions in Cardassian space after they had lost any realistic chance of holding territory they had claimed outside Cardassian territory, and so angered and despaired the Female Shapeshifter that she ordered the Jem'Hadar to attempt to give the Federation and their allies a Pyrrhic victory. Had this genocide not been attempted, the ever-pragmatic Founders would have been far more likely to accept a negotiated withdrawal or surrender; this operation probably cost thousands more Federation lives than it had to.
At no point in any of Section 31's canonical appearances have their operations had the intended long-term effect; most of their operations have had significant unintentional costs that far exceeded the purported benefits.
I don't see the issue. Pike knows about Section 31, at least their covert ops division which is perfectly fine since they have "a hand in everything," and appears to be informing Burnham of this fact. We don't know if he agrees with them, we don't know if he was a member, or if he was a rube who didn't pass their test so they fed him misinformation and use him to ferry their assassins around.
In my opinion, they're a criminal organization a la the Mafia that just tend to work within Starfleet and other Federation agencies (and grossly exaggerate their importance).
Pike probably doesn't know that Georgiou is from the mirror universe (which he also doesn't know about, since it's CLASSIFIED), but we all know that Georgiou isn't covert with her behavior and really makes a poor spy. I hope they don't draw out that "reveal" and Burnham tells him what's what in the turbolift, since he's nice enough to divulge about Section 31 apparently unprompted.
But, also, Section 31 didn't send out wetworks to take down Bashir and the DS9 command staff when he started blabbing about them, so they don't mind word getting out on occasion. They seem to be a neither confirm nor deny organization, much like the Mafia throughout history.
In my opinion, they're a criminal organization a la the Mafia that just tend to work within Starfleet and other Federation agencies (and grossly exaggerate their importance).
Pike probably doesn't know that Georgiou is from the mirror universe (which he also doesn't know about, since it's CLASSIFIED), but we all know that Georgiou isn't covert with her behavior and really makes a poor spy. I hope they don't draw out that "reveal" and Burnham tells him what's what in the turbolift, since he's nice enough to divulge about Section 31 apparently unprompted.
But, also, Section 31 didn't send out wetworks to take down Bashir and the DS9 command staff when he started blabbing about them, so they don't mind word getting out on occasion. They seem to be a neither confirm nor deny organization, much like the Mafia throughout history.
One thing I like about seeing Section 31 is it's nice to see "DS9" maybe the best and at least the second best Trek off them all get some respect and help add something to the rest of the franchise. Who knows maybe this will even get younger people to go check out the show. Then it becomes more popular and we get the blu-rays. Then a reunion movie and eventually a Captain Nog show.
Jason
Jason
I'm interested in the connection you make here to racism in TOS - I'm certainly not arguing that the racism (and sexism) in TOS is ok, in fact just the opposite! I hope it doesn't come across that way. TOS however is actually a great example of how 'realism' can be dictated relative to the attitudes of the culture that produces it. While the racism and sexism in TOS is perhaps egregious to us today it is perfectly 'realistic' considering the context of the 1960s. Indeed TOS is comparatively 'unrealistic' compared to the standards of the day, with a black woman, a japanese man and a russian in positions of authority on a ship which is basically depicted as belonging to 'space america'. If TOS had been more 'realistic' with regards the culture of the 1960s we probably would have a very un-diverse crew indeed (forbidden planet from only a few years earlier is probably closer to what we would have got).
And this is the point I'm trying to make; star trek works best when its not a 'realistic' depiction of a gritty and awful dystopian state that's closer to today's world, but rather as an essentially utopian fantasy - people still have flaws and make mistakes but humanity, as a concept, is not fundamentally flawed and is capable of building a society that is fair, free, equal and just beyond what is 'realistic' today, even though it still occasionally needs some maintenance from our heros (as in the case of the evil admirals and even, it should be said, Sloane and section 31 as portrayed in DS9). So while I agree with you that fiction should shine a light on these issues, I don't think star trek is necessarily the right format to do this - or at least, not the way its been handled so far. (Maybe disco season two will prove me wrong, stranger things have happened!
)If this was star wars I would certainly agree with you whole heartedly - the whole premise of that franchise is the rise of a tyrannical fascist regime from a shadowy evil organisation and the struggle to overthrow it - but in star trek its just the opposite. The evil empire doesn't rise and then must be overcome; rather the federation itself is the evil empire the whole time, and we don't even realise it! from the 2150s until the 2370s section 31 is in the background, pulling the strings, murdering and kidnapping people at will and seemingly not facing any exposure or consequences - for 200 years! It completely undercuts the notion that the federation is really any different from the cardassians, the romulans or the borg, other than having a relatively happy and compliant population. Now maybe if this were a 'fall of the federation' type storyline dealing with how section 31 is overcome and the peaceful and just society is established it would be ok, but discovery is once again hamstrung by its time frame in that we know that section 31 will continue to exist and operate for at least a hundred years more.
And yes, I do acknowledge you have a point here; section 31 has at least always been framed as the bad guys, and that's a good thing. But the notion that the organisation has basically existed unexposed for hundreds of years and faced no real consequences for its illegal and powermongering operations (despite repeated instances of disastrous blowback) is not a particularly great endorsement of the capacity of the federation to uphold the rule of law that it purports to hold so dear; it still fundamentally erodes the concept of the setting as a truly just society. And that implication is not one that starts with discovery or into darkness (though they do compound it); rather the blame for that falls on season 4 of enterprise, prior to which 31 was pretty much limited to Sloane and the 24th century.
But there is another point here and that is that section 31 is not just about the 'in-universe' depiction but also about how it feeds into broader cultural trends regarding the 'deep state' and the so-called international conspiracies - beyond being simply lazy writing this trope plays into conspiracy theories and (generally alt-right though there is probably left wing equivalent) propaganda that, somewhat paradoxically, is used to support totalitarianism by arguing that democratic institutions (albeit imperfect ones) are essentially totalitarian to begin with and are beyond saving. So my commentary is also aimed at the fan reaction to section 31 which sets up this 9/11 truther type section 31 conspiracy theory as being 'realistic' (as opposed to the framing of section 31 in-universe by the writers) and therefore legitimises a lot of this anti-democratic propaganda as equally realistic (even though ultimately a lot of that is just as fanciful and unrealistic as section 31, transporters and warp drive).
