If the Prime Directive were done properly

[at Quark's]

The most PD and least harmful thing to do would have been a full spread of torpedoes on that tavern and the surrounding town, to end the Picard Myth before it really got legs.

A few hundred are sacrificed to save an enlightened world from backsliding into the Dark Ages.

Not a terrible trade off?

I can see it now… the villagers are having a worship service in honour of the Picard … then the Picard sends them a heavenly sign, whitish trails in the sky, which is received with cheers from the villagers...the last few seconds in slowmotion ...

Then the photons hit, we see the explosions incinerate and blast away anything and everyone.

The camera switches to orbit, and against the background of the planet, with a tiny plume emerging from its surface, we see the Enterprise go to warp.

<Drums play while the title Star Trek: Outbreak appears>

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The thing is that it then allows people like Kirk and his crew to intervene, just as when there is a law that forbids you to do something if you do it anyway then the police can arrest you...

That's what laws are for.

Except that we're not talking about a single society which can be policed normally. If the damage is done by non-starfleet personnel, then the damage is already done before starfleet can intervene. If the culprit comes from starfleet itself, then the Captain in question is apparently rogue (or lax, with rogue or incompetent subordinates). In either case, the damage is already done. The foreign civilization will not magically return to normal because interference has ceased.

It is good that Kirk/Picard/whoever can arrest the people interfering and remove them from the situation, but it is good because the things those people would typically be doing are already bad things, above and beyond simple interference. Things like swindling, extortion, incitement of violence, etc, which would already be illegal under federation law. In other words, Kirk and Picard would do the same thing with these people even if the PD didn't exist.

In the end, the only time the PD ever actual accomplishes something - ie actually prevents damage - is when the people who have been taught to respect it and sworn to uphold it do what they were taught and sworn to do. IE, when well-meaning Starfleet officers who might be tempted to 'fix' problems they see in alien civilizations say 'That's not what we do' and walk away, thereby sparing everyone the centuries of fallout from their ill-thought out 'solutions'.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm now recalling that they tried to brain wipe Leland Palmer, and it didn't work.

PIcard mind wiped a thousand people twice in TNG Clues.

It's their own fault, that their brains are dryclean only.

 

[Discofan]

I'm now recalling that they tried to brain wipe Leland Palmer, and it didn't work.

PIcard mind wiped a thousand people twice in TNG Clues.

It's their own fault, that their brains are dryclean only.

That brain-wiping fails at very inconvenient times like with the guy from Worf's half-brother's girlfriend's tribe. Turns out he was suicidal! He couldn't bear a world with daytime tv, social networks, and long commutes! I can see why...

 

[suarezguy]

When a well-meaning organization doesn't do what it is supposed to do then it definitely is a failure. The confederation is a vast congregation of wealth and technology, it's (moral) duty is to help the less fortunate, just as it is ours (wealthy countries) to help the people in distress around the world.

Well there is more obligation to help in our present case in that at a minimum we are all taking from, and wealthy countries taking a lot more from, the same limited amount natural resources and arguably we are further responsible for other people being less well-off due to our past actions if not even also to our present actions. When/if there wasn't competition and unequal distribution the same resources or a history of exploitation the imperative would be a lot less.

But even in our case some types of help should be done while some shouldn't, we shouldn't help (think or claim we're helping) other societies by forcing them to change through military force and probably not even through attaching conditions to financial aid.

 

[Discofan]

...

But even in our case some types of help should be done while some shouldn't, we shouldn't help (think or claim we're helping) other societies by forcing them to change through military force and probably not even through attaching conditions to financial aid.

I'd be a little more nuanced about that as I think that in the case of a genocide, for example, we would not only be morally right to intervene but even obligated. A dictator is not the master in his country if he uses that to massively kill people in it, based on race, ethnic origin or customs... I think if we were a better people, which we aren't, at least not yet, we could define limits that the ruler of a country can't cross no matter his "legitimacy".

 

[Makarov]

I don't get the point of preserving the culture at all costs. If it's at the point of resource wars, rudimentary medicine etc.. then it could really use a hand, otherwise you doom them to hundreds of years of catching up

 

[Noname Given]

Re Into Darkness The JJVerse writers concept of the PD was closer to TNG than TOS, not sure if that was deliberate or they completely misunderstood the original concept. They turned Captain Pike into Captain Picard.

IDK - Pike's main point of anger was more that Kirk tried to cover it up and lie about what he did. (IE - Had he done a log entry mentioning it, Pike MIGHT have been able to cover for him); but because of how Kirk went about it:

- Pike was blindsided.
- Pike was upset Kirk did have a callous disregard for any regulation Kirk didn't agree with.

As for Spock 'agreeing with the PD' - no, if Spck really felt that way, he wouldn't have come up with the plan to avert the disaster, nor would he have risked his life to carry it out.

 

[Discofan]

IDK - Pike's main point of anger was more that Kirk tried to cover it up and lie about what he did. (IE - Had he done a log entry mentioning it, Pike MIGHT have been able to cover for him); but because of how Kirk went about it:

- Pike was blindsided.
- Pike was upset Kirk did have a callous disregard for any regulation Kirk didn't agree with.

As for Spock 'agreeing with the PD' - no, if Spck really felt that way, he wouldn't have come up with the plan to avert the disaster, nor would he have risked his life to carry it out.

I don't know if "callous" is the right word here. "Callous" is aptly applied to let people die without intervention. I would say that Kirk had a disregard for a callous regulation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The thing is that it then allows people like Kirk and his crew to intervene, just as when there is a law that forbids you to do something if you do it anyway then the police can arrest you...

That's what laws are for.



That's precisely what it is: A failure.

When a well-meaning organization doesn't do what it is supposed to do then it definitely is a failure. The confederation is a vast congregation of wealth and technology, it's (moral) duty is to help the less fortunate, just as it is ours (wealthy countries) to help the people in distress around the world.

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet Rule, not a Federation Rule.

Imagine if Captains of US warships were able to offer billions in aid, or military support, picking who to back in foreign wars, or foreign civil wars, all without asking their immediate superiors, the joint chiefs, the president or congress, who are probably of a mind not to offer billions of dollars or commit millions of troops on the sayso of Captain someone, or simultaneously dozens of Captain someones 10 rungs down in the American hierarchy of the political military industrial supercomplex.

The Federation, or specifically the Federation Council makes decisions that Starfleet implements, inside the limitations of Starfleet's regulations, to improve the galaxy, not "lowly" Starfleet Captains.

 

[Sgt_G]

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet Rule, not a Federation Rule. {....} The Federation, or specifically the Federation Council makes decisions that Starfleet implements, inside the limitations of Starfleet's regulations

The PD is a Starfleet regulation, yes, but it must be based on a law written and passed by the Fed Council, just as most modern-day US military regs are rooted in the laws passed by Congress. I would presume that there is a civilian law equivalent to the PD.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Federation has limited control over it's member worlds who are all willful autonomous nationstates, with their own priorities and agendas. So that's there over a hundred and 50 planets who would have to all tie their hands away from serious opportunities, to appease a dinky club that they belong to, who may be more trouble than they are worth... Like (hypothetically for example) Cyprus' bad faith souring the EU's faith in Cyprus' decency, and continued participation in the EU.

It could be a provision of Federation membership?

Or member Worlds moving in opposition of the equivalency of the Prime Directive is cause for expulsion?

But then the quality of the punishment is still a question of whether this is the criminal activity of a member world entirely, or a subset of individual citizens?

Although...

Starfleet, and the Star Fleet Charter predates the Federation, where decades later blindsided Archer had to be talked into playing by the Vulcan version of the Prime Directive by his XO, because the concept of leaving the young races alone was completely alien to him.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

For the record, on TOS Kirk wanted to charge (Capt. Merrick I think it was?) a merchant marine captain for PD violations, too. Sure, he had attended Starfleet Academy (but not graduated), but he wasn't a SF officer at the time. So whether 'It's only a Starfleet thing, not a Federation thing' is not entirely clear.

 

[Discofan]

The PD is a Starfleet regulation, yes, but it must be based on a law written and passed by the Fed Council, just as most modern-day US military regs are rooted in the laws passed by Congress. I would presume that there is a civilian law equivalent to the PD.

Which is why Voyager shouldn't be left under the undisputed rule of Janeway. In cases like these, especially since the crew wasn't a hundred percent Starfleet personnel. There should be a representation of the civilian government on board, namely elected people, to safeguard the rights of everyone regardless of Janeway's flights of fancy. For example, she shouldn't have been the sole decider of the fate of Tuvix. The federation doesn't have the death penalty, so killing him under any circumstances other maybe than self-defense, IE if he tried to kill someone and killing him was the only way to prevent it, is a crime. The Ship belongs to the Federation, not to Starfleet. It is ruled by a Captain under normal circumstances, in the understanding that that Captain is subjected not only to his/her hierarchy but through it to the civilian government.

 

[Sgt_G]

Which is why Voyager shouldn't be left under the undisputed rule of Janeway. In cases like these, especially since the crew wasn't a hundred percent Starfleet personnel.

There is precident going back to the age or wooden ships that the Captain of a warship has supreme authority while out of communication with the home government.

There should be a representation of the civilian government on board, namely elected people

And when did this elected official board the ship?? This wasn't BSG with the Sec. of Education on a tour visit........

 

[Guy Gardener]

For the record, on TOS Kirk wanted to charge (Capt. Merrick I think it was?) a merchant marine captain for PD violations, too. Sure, he had attended Starfleet Academy (but not graduated), but he wasn't a SF officer at the time. So whether 'It's only a Starfleet thing, not a Federation thing' is not entirely clear.

How do you be a merchant in a society with no money?

They work because they love to work.

Achievement and adventure.

But the only people handing out star ships to shmucks, by the 23rd century in communist human space, is the Federation or the United Earth... And these marines will have guide lines comparable to Starfleet Officers, since they can more easily turn to piracy or sell their ship to the Orion Syndicate.

 

[Sgt_G]

How do you be a merchant in a society with no money?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

How do you be a merchant in a society with no money?

They work because they love to work.

Achievement and adventure.

But the only people handing out star ships to shmucks, by the 23rd century in communist human space, is the Federation or the United Earth... And these marines will have guide lines comparable to Starfleet Officers, since they can more easily turn to piracy or sell their ship to the Orion Syndicate.

Wrong time period. It wasn't until the TOS movie era that they didn't have money.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're forgetting Enterprise, which is a little known, often forgotten prequel that described Earth as having a Free Economy.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

You're forgetting Enterprise, which is a little known, often forgotten prequel that described Earth as having a Free Economy.

Yeah, but that's just Earth. They're a bunch of weirdos.