Does GENS succeed or fail as an introduction to TNG for new viewers?

[Allyn Gibson]

TMP doesn't really leave anything unexplained when it comes to basics like that. Everything is explained fresh. TWOK likewise doesn't need 'Space Seed' in order to work, everything we need to learn about Kirk's and Khan's history is reestablished fresh. GENERATIONS makes no such concessions.

This thread prompted me to pull out Generations and give it a rewatch and try and watch it with an "I don't know anything" mindset. And I was struck by how much time the film wastes, not just on the prologue but on Data, as well.

There's a screenwriting truth that I heard years ago, and I've tried to keep it in mind with my own (non-screen)writing -- a scene needs to either advance plot or advance character, and ideally a scene should do both. Data's scenes advance his character, but there's only one that advances the film's main plot (when Soran attacks Geordi and Data). The rest advance Data's personal subplot (installing the emotion chip and his reaction to it), but that subplot is so disconnected from the main plot (figuring out what Soran is doing and stopping him) that it's a waste of the audience's time. I realize that it's there to entice Spiner to sign, but I feel like they could have written a subplot for Data that was more relevant to the main plot.

As for things the film doesn't explain, three stood out for me. First, it's never really clear that Geordi's blind. One could sort of infer that, from the torture scene, but, from a 2018 standpoint, ti would also be reasonable to assume that Geordi is into cybernetic modification and enhancement. Second, Deanna's role on the ship isn't clear, nor does the film explain that she's an empath and picked up on Picard's feelings early in the film; she just seems intuitively sensitive to Picard's moods, like she's his emotional support person. Third, it's not clear that Worf is the security chief; weapons officer, yes, in the battle with Lursa and B'Etor, but otherwise, he's Riker's muscle on away teams.

Lursa and B'Etor were mentioned as being poorly introduced above, and while I think their introduction as secondary antagonists is fine, I felt that their motivation and why they were secondary antagonists was very poorly handled. The film assumes that the viewer knows the Klingon mythology of TNG (mythology is terms of what the series did with Klingons, not in terms of the gods the Klingons worship) and where the duo fit into that and their history with the Enterprise-D. A couple of lines of dialogue -- "Our rightful place in the Empire was stolen from us" -- would have solved a lot of problems. Their real problem, though, is that the film treats them as Generic Bad Guy Klingons, in that role that any other Bad Guy Klingons could fill because they're familiar faces to the fans in the audience, and then takes them off the board forever. In retrospect, I can easily envision a role for Lursa and B'Etor in the final four seasons of Deep Space Nine when the Klingons become a major factor there.

I think of myself as one of the film's defenders -- I wrote an article for Titan's Star Trek Magazine almost ten years ago defending the film and arguing its merits -- but watching the film through fresh eyes, trying to see it not as a fan but as a newbie, I can see that it's a film for fans only, and it's difficult to imagine how the other stories considered (Moore & Braga's A versus D, Hurley's holodeck weirdness) would have been better in that regard.

 

[Jeyl]

As a bridge between two eras of Star Trek, it's a total failure. The marketing really pushed the idea that this was a passing the torch kind of event,

"The torch of adventure is about to be passed."

Kind of weird when the TNG series was already done at this point. You'd think the 'passing the torch' moment would have been during McCoy's visit to the Enterprise in the TNG pilot*.

I don't even think the TNG crew came off in a positive light at all in this movie, and we're supposed to accept these as the successors to the TOS crew. The only thing that the TNG crew are able to figure out is where Soran is going to go next. The result? The complete destruction of the solar system along with the Enterprise. And when Kirk and Picard come back and fix things, we leave with the Enterprise destroyed, the crew seemingly happy about it and Picard happy that he got his family book back.

And on that point of this movie relying on it's audience to know about TNG before hand, I'm surprised about how much stuff is in this movie that was not in TNG. The family album, the promotional ceremony, a multi-deck stellar-cartography (Wouldn't the holodeck have been able to achieve the same kind of immersion?)

*Which now that I think back on it, Encounter At Farpoint wasn't a very good introduction to the crew either. I mean, the opening 20 minutes feature our french captain yelling at his crew and surrendering to the first thing he encounters on the maiden voyage of the 'Federation Flagship'.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I don't even think the TNG crew came off in a positive light at all in this movie, and we're supposed to accept these as the successors to the TOS crew. The only thing that the TNG crew are able to figure out is where Soran is going to go next. The result? The complete destruction of the solar system along with the Enterprise. And when Kirk and Picard come back and fix things, we leave with the Enterprise destroyed, the crew seemingly happy about it and Picard happy that he got his family book back.

That's one of the strange things about the film -- the main characters fail often, they lose everything, and the victory is more theoretical than actual (Soran's plan to destroy the star is foiled, and while there's a civilization saved we never saw it so that has no weight). The film repudiates the open-ended hopefulness of "All Good Things..." and replaces it with destruction and despair. What it feels like is closure, and this is the end of the road for these characters.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I think it's a terrible way to introduce the characters where they're unrecognizable, the Captain playing a holo-fantasy with his crew in the era chosen is so not Picard. A Dixon Hill fantasy is more in line, also I thought the tragedy was too inside the box where audiences needed to do homework to understand Picard's sorrow. The character should be represented as strong, and confident, and not snipey and distant. Riker holding his emotions as Picard snipes at him is not the character and should've confronted him; a CO has no right to talk to his EX-O that way... in front of subordinates. Now, Worf, a character I've never liked but is depicted as an honorable man, and prideful figure on the Enterprise in TNG, but we see him in GEN being embarrassed or better yet humiliated during his promotion ceremony.

The crew laughed out loud for it but when Data pushed Crusher into the water they didn't have a similar reaction... even though Dr. Crusher gave Data enough information for him to proceed. Data acting like an a$$hole throughout the picture didn't make him likeable and invited a disservice of who Data was, a character who represented exploration in others and himself. The Duras battle sequence didn't present the crew in a good light either, I mean after what TOS crew pulled off battling a Klingon ship which fire while cloaked, I expected TNG crew to be better and act competent. These events were not a good introduction for our heroes, they should be presented like Gods, silhouetted and all that jazz so the audience can root for them. There were too many out of character moments in Generations for an audience to get a grasp at who these characters were. Even Kirk was out of character; there's no way Kirk would leave the bridge while Harriman appeared unfit just to play engineer for the day to get killed off.

 

[Jeyl]

That's one of the strange things about the film -- the main characters fail often, they lose everything, and the victory is more theoretical than actual (Soran's plan to destroy the star is foiled, and while there's a civilization saved we never saw it so that has no weight). The film repudiates the open-ended hopefulness of "All Good Things..." and replaces it with destruction and despair. What it feels like is closure, and this is the end of the road for these characters.

The opening act with Kirk doesn't help matters either since unlike the TNG crew, Kirk is able to mount a rescue mission in an ill-equipped ship and save some of the El-Aurians refugees before he winds up laying down his life to save everyone else.

What kills me is that the TNG crews' rescue of the Amargosa was more successful than what we wound up getting in the final product. The original opening featured the crew onboard the Amargosa station minding their own business when suddenly the Romulans show up and start attacking. When all seems lost, the Enterprise D shows up and successfully manages to thwart the Romulans from destroying the station. That could have been a more fun and productive way of introducing audiences to the TNG crew. But Jeri Taylor had to bestow her 'I like Costume Dramas' wisdom on Moore and Bragga by saying that the sequence was too predictable. Really. We went from the TNG crew saving the station to failing to save the station all for a sequence that substituted predicability with out of place randomness. And I bet you my entire Trek collection that if the promotional ceremony had been dropped, there would have been enough money to make new officer uniforms for ALL the characters rather than switching in and out of their TV era uniforms and having Geordi and Riker borrow the current era uniforms from DS9.

 

[Kamdan]

A couple of lines of dialogue -- "Our rightful place in the Empire was stolen from us" -- would have solved a lot of problems.

SORAN: They knew it was on the observatory. If the Enterprise hadn't intervened, they would have found it.

LURSA: They didn't find it, and now we have a weapon of unlimited power.

SORAN: No, Lursa, I have the weapon. And if you ever want me to give it to you, I would advise you to be a little more careful in the future.

B'ETOR: Perhaps we are tired of waiting.

SORAN: Without my research the trilithium is worthless, as are your plans to reconquer the Klingon Empire.

Looks like your “problem” was already solved.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Looks like your “problem” was already solved.

Seven words from Soran doesn't explain the sisters' motivation or backstory.

Edited to Add: The main reason why I would argue that "seven words from Soran doesn't explain the sisters' motivation or backstory" is that, by the time the Bad Guy Klingons (the Duras Sisters) have been introduced, we've already been introduced to a Good Guy Klingon (Worf). A non-fan would think, "They're the same kind of aliens as that other guy, so why is he a good guy and they're bad guys?" Even "conquer the Klingon Empire" isn't helpful, because who are Klingons and why do Lursa and B'Etor want to conquer it? One could maybe infer that B'Etor is a Klingon (she talks about "a Klingon mating ritual"), but is she describing her species? I'd argue that it's not until the space battle, when Worf describes their ship as a Klingon Bird-of-Prey, that it's clear that Lursa and B'Etor are Klingons. But that still leaves open the question of why Worf is with the Good Guys and Lursa and B'Etor are with the Bad Guys.

 

[Kamdan]

Seven words from Soran doesn't explain the sisters' motivation or backstory.

It was enough for me to get why these particular Klingons are doing what they’re doing. I still haven’t seen the The Next Generation story arc that features these characters, so even though I might be missing further context, I get why they want a powerful weapon to reclaim something they have once lost.

You don’t have to explain what a Klingon is seven movies into a series to the audience. Especially when the last movie detailed that the Klingons established a treaty with the Federation. Berman made a mandate that Klingons be involved in the story because of their wide recognition to non-fan audiences. Moore and Braga wrote a lot more clarification dialogue about the Dura sisters that was shot, but later deemed to be unnecessary to drive the story, so it was cut.

A non-fan would think, "They're the same kind of aliens as that other guy, so why is he a good guy and they're bad guys?"

With that mentality, they’re probably those who think all Muslims are terrorist that want to bomb us.

 

[Khan 2.0]

reading through this thread its pretty clear Generations was made for the fans who were already up to speed with everything. the general audience with little to no knowledge of Trek would be in the dark for most of it. could've have been different though had TPTB just taken Nimoys advice and rethought the story to make it all more comprehendible (and suitable for the general audience - with greater thought to introducing the TNG cast) and so Spock could be in it (and directed it) and released it in 95 (or 96 for the 30th ann). then itd have probably been one of the best Trek films

 

[Kamdan]

reading through this thread its pretty clear Generations was made for the fans who were already up to speed with everything. the general audience with little to no knowledge of Trek would be in the dark for most of it. could've have been different though had TPTB just taken Nimoys advice and rethought the story to make it all more comprehendible (and suitable for the general audience - with greater thought to introducing the TNG cast) and so Spock could be in it (and directed it) and released it in 95 (or 96 for the 30th ann). then itd have probably been one of the best Trek films

That’d be a hell of a Nexus fantasy. Too bad Berman locked the clamps on that idea. He didn’t want to lose his power like what happened to Bennett.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Part of why I love the very honest commentary track by Moore & Braga is that they admit that they did Picard wrong with the introduction of Picard on a first impression basis. It's also pretty clear they were writing this film in the same mindset as if it were an episode in the seventh season. They do try to go for big ideas and themes but they were still stuck in that television mindset. The A and B story being largely separate from each other would be perfectly fine for a TV episode, but not a feature length movie. They'd at least learn to have them integrated with each other in FIRST CONTACT.

Also according to the track, they originally had in mind the Enterprise-D's introduction being the response to the distress call and fighting off the Romulans to save the observatory. Through this sequence you'd reintroduce the entire crew with them in their element. It was Jeri Taylor who suggested they scrap that because she thought it was boring action and replace it with something "quirky", outside the box to make it different and surprisingly fun. That's how we got the Worf promotion scene. That's how we got the historic Kirk and Picard meeting taking place at a country cabin cooking eggs. Simply as an idea I can see the appeal in wanting to go for that, but the execution doesn't quite make them sing.

 

[Jeyl]

It was Jeri Taylor who suggested they scrap that because she thought it was boring action and replace it with something "quirky",

And thus gave us a series of events that are more tonally confused than they were in Star Trek V. A sad drawn out shot of our characters realizing that Kirk is dead, quirky comedy in the holodeck the next followed by more drawn out sad moments involving family members burning to death in a fire. Tone consistency can be just as important to a movie as a coherent story.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Also according to the track, they originally had in mind the Enterprise-D's introduction being the response to the distress call and fighting off the Romulans to save the observatory. Through this sequence you'd reintroduce the entire crew with them in their element. It was Jeri Taylor who suggested they scrap that because she thought it was boring action and replace it with something "quirky", outside the box to make it different and surprisingly fun. That's how we got the Worf promotion scene

think remember reading it was done as the Ent B sequence was considered action packed with Kirk saving the ship so to go from that to another action sequence seemed off. therefore the holodeck was done as they loved the idea of '78 years later' and its like the 17th century or something..

think it was in the commentary either Moore or Branga said when they were approached about the crossover film the initial idea that popped into his head was for the poster of Kirk/Spock on one side Picard/Data on the other and inbetween the 2 Enterprises locked in battle but neither of them could figure out how to do that without one crew being like the villain

 

[Jeyl]

think remember reading it was done as the Ent B sequence was considered action packed with Kirk saving the ship so to go from that to another action sequence seemed off. therefore the holodeck was done as they loved the idea of '78 years later' and its like the 17th century or something.

There's a big difference between an action sequence where we see a 60 something year old Kirk following technobabble instructions and a ship-to-ship action sequence where the Enterprise fights off multiple Romulan ships and saves the day. This is like saying we couldn't have a battle in the Mutara Nebula because we just had an action sequence with Tyrel and Chekov on Regula. By the time Generations came about, there hadn't been a really been a good ship-to-ship action sequence since The Wrath of Khan, and I'd dare say that we still didn't get one with Generations because both Star Trek 6 and GEN featured a one-sided fight that ended with a one-hit kill shot by the Enterprise (and same explosion shot too).

The real question shouldn't be if there is one action scene too many, but if it compliments the story. I think it would have. If the opening act conveyed the idea that the Enterprise B and her crew were ill-equipped, inexperienced and wouldn't have accomplished anything on their own, the Enterprise D coming in to save the station shows what an experienced crew can accomplish when they rush head long into a dangerous situation. Instead we get...

"Looks like we're too late."

And it goes downhill from there.

 

[The Wormhole]

There's a screenwriting truth that I heard years ago, and I've tried to keep it in mind with my own (non-screen)writing -- a scene needs to either advance plot or advance character, and ideally a scene should do both. Data's scenes advance his character, but there's only one that advances the film's main plot (when Soran attacks Geordi and Data). The rest advance Data's personal subplot (installing the emotion chip and his reaction to it), but that subplot is so disconnected from the main plot (figuring out what Soran is doing and stopping him) that it's a waste of the audience's time.

That's the sort of thing that could have worked in a TV episode, with Soran and his quest to return to the Nexus the A plot and Data's emotion chip stuff the B plot. That doesn't quite translate to films that well, though.

 

[Lance]

This thread prompted me to pull out Generations and give it a rewatch and try and watch it with an "I don't know anything" mindset. And I was struck by how much time the film wastes, not just on the prologue but on Data, as well.

There's a screenwriting truth that I heard years ago, and I've tried to keep it in mind with my own (non-screen)writing -- a scene needs to either advance plot or advance character, and ideally a scene should do both. Data's scenes advance his character, but there's only one that advances the film's main plot (when Soran attacks Geordi and Data). The rest advance Data's personal subplot (installing the emotion chip and his reaction to it), but that subplot is so disconnected from the main plot (figuring out what Soran is doing and stopping him) that it's a waste of the audience's time. I realize that it's there to entice Spiner to sign, but I feel like they could have written a subplot for Data that was more relevant to the main plot.

As for things the film doesn't explain, three stood out for me. First, it's never really clear that Geordi's blind. One could sort of infer that, from the torture scene, but, from a 2018 standpoint, ti would also be reasonable to assume that Geordi is into cybernetic modification and enhancement. Second, Deanna's role on the ship isn't clear, nor does the film explain that she's an empath and picked up on Picard's feelings early in the film; she just seems intuitively sensitive to Picard's moods, like she's his emotional support person. Third, it's not clear that Worf is the security chief; weapons officer, yes, in the battle with Lursa and B'Etor, but otherwise, he's Riker's muscle on away teams.

Lursa and B'Etor were mentioned as being poorly introduced above, and while I think their introduction as secondary antagonists is fine, I felt that their motivation and why they were secondary antagonists was very poorly handled. The film assumes that the viewer knows the Klingon mythology of TNG (mythology is terms of what the series did with Klingons, not in terms of the gods the Klingons worship) and where the duo fit into that and their history with the Enterprise-D. A couple of lines of dialogue -- "Our rightful place in the Empire was stolen from us" -- would have solved a lot of problems. Their real problem, though, is that the film treats them as Generic Bad Guy Klingons, in that role that any other Bad Guy Klingons could fill because they're familiar faces to the fans in the audience, and then takes them off the board forever. In retrospect, I can easily envision a role for Lursa and B'Etor in the final four seasons of Deep Space Nine when the Klingons become a major factor there.

I think of myself as one of the film's defenders -- I wrote an article for Titan's Star Trek Magazine almost ten years ago defending the film and arguing its merits -- but watching the film through fresh eyes, trying to see it not as a fan but as a newbie, I can see that it's a film for fans only, and it's difficult to imagine how the other stories considered (Moore & Braga's A versus D, Hurley's holodeck weirdness) would have been better in that regard.

Excellent observations @Allyn Gibson I too have an instinctive tendency to want to defend the movie, because I truly believe that the things it gets right, it actually hits out of the park. Soran for example is an interesting villain with credible motivation that (crucially for Star Trek movie villains, lol) is not driven by revenge, but by sorrow. He's a bastard because he went through hell and become utterly closed off from empathy, and his driving force is to be with his long dead family. That's powerful. And it's far from the movie's only merits...

... but the execution of the ideas isn't often worthy of the ideas themselves. And I believe, truly believe, every movie or TV episode of a franchise really needs to keep in mind it could be someone's introduction. I think it was Stan Lee who once observed it was crucial to remind the audience of the fundamentals for exactly this reason. I believe some of the TNG movies did that admirably, but Generations wasn't one of them.

 

[The Wormhole]

In spite of all things, Generations holds a special place in my heart. It was the first Trek movie I saw in theatres, and I remember being nine years old absolutely jizzing my pants in anticipation to see the movie, and I did not walk out of that theatre disappointed. In fact, I ended up seeing it twice more in theatres, one of the only movie, Trek or otherwise, I saw more than once in the theatres. And although getting older did allow me to see the flaws in the film, I'll still gladly rewatch the film simply to recapture the magic of youth. It's a flawed movie, I won't deny it, but nostalgia is a powerful thing.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Excellent observations @Allyn Gibson I too have an instinctive tendency to want to defend the movie, because I truly believe that the things it gets right, it actually hits out of the park.

Very much so. Setting aside Data's plotline, it deals with some interesting thematic material about choices and regrets. I also think Generations features the best direction and cinematography of the four TNG movies; it's a visually impressive film, and Carson gets good performances out of the cast.

And I believe, truly believe, every movie or TV episode of a franchise really needs to keep in mind it could be someone's introduction. I think it was Stan Lee who once observed it was crucial to remind the audience of the fundamentals for exactly this reason. I believe some of the TNG movies did that admirably, but Generations wasn't one of them.

Stan Lee's exact quote was, I believe, "Every issue is someone's first issue."

 

[Kamdan]

Stan Lee's exact quote was, I believe, "Every issue is someone's first issue."

Comics, especially ones of Lee’s era, have the advantage of having sidebars that can further clarify a story point for those who didn’t read the previous issues that can be easily skipped by the reader that won’t disrupt the story. Movies can’t do that because it grinds the story to a screeching hault, like all of the scenes in Into Darkness where audiences unfamiliar with Khan are told who he is from Spock Prime’s perspective. Of course, the characters are being informed who he is, but they don’t really need to as the story will reveal his true motives a couple of minutes later. It was just an unnecessary info dump so those who only know the title The Wrath of Khan will have their suspicions confirmed.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Part of why I love the very honest commentary track by Moore & Braga is that they admit that they did Picard wrong with the introduction of Picard on a first impression basis. It's also pretty clear they were writing this film in the same mindset as if it were an episode in the seventh season. They do try to go for big ideas and themes but they were still stuck in that television mindset. The A and B story being largely separate from each other would be perfectly fine for a TV episode, but not a feature length movie. They'd at least learn to have them integrated with each other in FIRST CONTACT.

Also according to the track, they originally had in mind the Enterprise-D's introduction being the response to the distress call and fighting off the Romulans to save the observatory. Through this sequence you'd reintroduce the entire crew with them in their element. It was Jeri Taylor who suggested they scrap that because she thought it was boring action and replace it with something "quirky", outside the box to make it different and surprisingly fun. That's how we got the Worf promotion scene. That's how we got the historic Kirk and Picard meeting taking place at a country cabin cooking eggs. Simply as an idea I can see the appeal in wanting to go for that, but the execution doesn't quite make them sing.

Basically taking advice from a person who has more thoughts in mind for a soap opera than a cinematic narrative. The promotion and country cabin stuff is boring, so basically lets replace boring action for boring drama. Way to go, Jeri.