“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[Lord Garth]

I think they want to get as far away from previous (let’s face it, failed) Star Trek - that is, TOS and ENT which were both cancelled - and they’re hoping that the “get over it” brigade will silence or shout down anyone who has truly invested in the established look and aesthetic of particular eras of Star Trek.

Dsc looks wrong for the era.

TOS was cancelled before many of us were born, so I don't think the idea that it was a "failure" applies to today. From what I understand, TOS was a huge success in reruns and that success is what ultimately led to the cast's return. So time and circumstances after the fact wash away how TOS might've been perceived in the 1960s.

If they wanted to get as far away from what TOS and ENT were, they wouldn't have made DSC a prequel and they wouldn't have integrated any TOS characters into the series.

What they would've done is make the Picard Series right off the bat.

You could argue that they revisited the TOS Era (no matter how it looks) because of the Abrams Films, but even then: when it came time to reboot the films, they didn't reboot TNG, they chose to reboot TOS.

 

[gblews]

^ Agree and might I add, Ent was not a "failure" even though it didn't get 3 more seasons. The first two seasons were crap, not too unusual for a Trek series, but seasons 3 and 4 were stellar and did some things that no other Trek show had ever done. I still think season 3 of Ent ranks right up there with the best seasons of any Trek series including TNG and DS9.

Ent was also hurt by the fact that Les Moonves was determined to rid UPN of all science fiction.

 

[DaveyNY]

Taking his meds
&
Taking his meds.

You forgot 'Drinking His Wine'.

 

[DaveyNY]

^ Agree and might I add, Ent was not a "failure" even though it didn't get 3 more seasons. The first two seasons were crap, not too unusual for a Trek series, but seasons 3 and 4 were stellar and did some things that no other Trek show had ever done. I still think season 3 of Ent ranks right up there with the best seasons of any Trek series including TNG and DS9.

Ent was also hurt by the fact that Les Moonves was determined to rid UPN of all science fiction.

Yeah, They kept saying They were going for a younger and more female audience, but then made WWF the highlight of the network.

 

[Lord Garth]

^ Agree and might I add, Ent was not a "failure" even though it didn't get 3 more seasons. The first two seasons were crap, not too unusual for a Trek series, but seasons 3 and 4 were stellar and did some things that no other Trek show had ever done. I still think season 3 of Ent ranks right up there with the best seasons of any Trek series including TNG and DS9.

Ent was also hurt by the fact that Les Moonves was determined to rid UPN of all science fiction.

Even though I'm not a fan of ENT, I think four seasons for a science-fiction show is a good run. If people hadn't been expecting seven seasons, they wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong with four.

 

[Lord Garth]

Yeah, They kept saying They were going for a younger and more female audience, but then made WWF the highlight of the network.

WB was going for the younger, female audience. UPN had WWF but they were also kind of all over the map. Unlike WB, UPN didn't run with what worked best for them. Black sitcoms were UPN's niche and they shouldn't have been afraid to embrace that more. Sci-fi was going nowhere for them but they kept trying to force it and they weren't getting a clue. If it wasn't Star Trek, it wasn't lasting.

The only sci-fi show I watched on there besides VOY was Nowhere Man with Bruce Greenwood and I barely even remember that show. It only stands out for me now because of Pike. If I were to rewatch Nowhere Man, who knows what I'd even think of it now.

EDIT: Just found the intro here. Wow. I haven't seen this since high school...

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[Nerys Myk]

You forgot 'Drinking His Wine'.

Doesn't mix well with his meds.

 

[DaveyNY]

Doesn't mix well with his meds.

Sine when has that stopped anybody?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sine when has that stopped anybody?

THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE!!!!!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Even though I'm not a fan of ENT, I think four seasons for a science-fiction show is a good run. If people hadn't been expecting seven seasons, they wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong with four.

I don't think people think of it as a failure because 'it only got four seasons'. They think of it as a failure because there is an impression that the only reason it managed to get that far in the first place is because it had the 'Star Trek' name brand and as a result was given way more time to find its feet than most shows could expect. The average sci-fi show would not have made it to season 3 after having the kind of start ENT had (and I say that despite the fact that I actually think Season 2 was really the best season the show had), let alone season 4 (which we in fact know only happened because after shelling out for 3 seasons already, they wanted to at least get 100 episodes so they could sell the show in syndication).

 

[DaveyNY]

THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE!!!!!

OK

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How's that?

 

[jaime]

OK

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How's that?

There are four gaps!...Er...five...ee..six seven eight....EE...sorry what we’re talking about...enough of your games Q!

 

[Lord Garth]

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Mudd]

Yeah...I don't regard ENT as a failure in any respect. It's one of my three favorite Trek series, and my favorite only lasted three years.

 

[Lord Garth]

I wonder if they'll stick with the TOS font for the Picard Series? That would feel weird.

 

[Discofan]

Everything will be fine as long as Picard doesn't try to speak French...

 

[Noname Given]

Everything will be fine as long as Picard doesn't try to speak French...

I wouldn't worry. IF Picard is supposed to be the 'modern Frenchman of the 24th century' <--- Then there's no one alive in the Star Trek Universe who still speaks French.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

I don't think the idea that it was a "failure" applies to today.

Just for clarity’s sake, I don’t personally regard TOS and ENT as failures. I was trying to play devils advocate and looking at the shows from a cancellation point of view.

You’re obviously correct when you say:

a huge success in reruns and that success is what ultimately led to the cast's return. So time and circumstances after the fact wash away how TOS might've been perceived in the 1960s.

Because we wouldn’t be here talking about Star Trek at all otherwise.

Thing is, if we consider Trek relative to Star Wars and Marvel, it’s a commercial and marketing failure because I still think it’s perceived as being “uncool”.

What they would've done is make the Picard Series right off the bat.

Would they? Does TNG have the same impact in relation to the cultural zeitgeist as TOS? Especially in the wake of the Abrams films? I’m genuinely asking out of curiosity btw

^ Agree and might I add, Ent was not a "failure" even though it didn't get 3 more seasons. The first two seasons were crap, not too unusual for a Trek series, but seasons 3 and 4 were stellar and did some things that no other Trek show had ever done. I still think season 3 of Ent ranks right up there with the best seasons of any Trek series including TNG and DS9.

Ent was also hurt by the fact that Les Moonves was determined to rid UPN of all science fiction.

Totally agree. As I said I don’t personally consider ENT a failure (I really liked it from day 1 and I still do - the first season is much more settled than the first season of TNG, they’d obviously got their eye in by then), but the fact remains that it was cancelled. If loads of people had been watching week to week like TNG, it’s doubtful that it would have been cancelled even if the guy in charge wanted to do away with sci-fi because ratings.

Yeah...I don't regard ENT as a failure in any respect. It's one of my three favorite Trek series, and my favorite only lasted three years.

Agreed. I loved Enterprise. It’s a shame it got cancelled - but even compared to TOS, it still didn’t have the same impact on either the viewers (fans or casual) or the franchise. So in that way it failed and led to the likes of Abrams looking at the “core” of Star Trek - which relates to the icons of the franchise: captain Kurt, Dr Spock, and the Star track Enterprise.

 

[Rahul]

Thing is, if we consider Trek relative to Star Wars and Marvel, it’s a commercial and marketing failure because I still think it’s perceived as being “uncool”.

Star Trek is an absolute popcultural juggernaut! Just going purely from hours of content, there is probably no other franchise that has this much high-profile hours on screen accumulated. And it has a very devout fanbase.

In fact, I would say Star Trek is one of the few overarching, big live-action IPs overall that people are aware of, like the James Bond franchise, superheroes, ... It is one of the only two(!) major science fiction franchises in the world (the other being, obviously, Star Trek) - all other SF franchises, be it Stargate, BSG, or Lost in Space are dwarfed by it.

But there is the thing: Star Trek is primarily a television franchise. It's motion pictures, for the most part, have been glorified "The Movie"-versions of the show, and such the movie offshoots have never gained the same traction as whatever type of movie was the most popular at the time.

But I honestly can't think of a bigger, longer running television franchise of the top of my head. How many series does CSI have now? But they don't have the long history or popcultural penetration... Dr. Who? That's pretty long! But always was pretty much only "one" show, and the spin-offs clearly never matching the original. I don't know, maybe telenovelas. But Star Trek is pretty big and durable, even if right now (as always has been) other things have been bigger at the same time.

Agreed. I loved Enterprise. It’s a shame it got cancelled - but even compared to TOS, it still didn’t have the same impact on either the viewers (fans or casual) or the franchise. So in that way it failed and led to the likes of Abrams looking at the “core” of Star Trek - which relates to the icons of the franchise: captain Kurt, Dr Spock, and the Star track Enterprise.

Oh, Enterprise was high-end production show that went more or less successfully for 4 years. In the realms of television, that's pretty good. It's only a disappointment in regards of expectations - in that people had higher hopes for the franchise. The same holds true for DIS btw: Looked at it without context, it's one of the better shows out there. It's just under the massive weight of expectations from a new Star Trek shows that it crumbles under.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Star Trek is an absolute popcultural juggernaut! Just going purely from hours of content, there is probably no other franchise that has this much high-profile hours on screen accumulated. And it has a very devout fanbase.

In fact, I would say Star Trek is one of the few overarching, big live-action IPs overall that people are aware of, like the James Bond franchise, superheroes, ... It is one of the only two(!) major science fiction franchises in the world (the other being, obviously, Star Trek) - all other SF franchises, be it Stargate, BSG, or Lost in Space are dwarfed by it.

Definitely - it’s earned its place in pop culture. It just doesn’t seem to have the same level of acceptance as, say, Star Wars or Marvel. I can’t go into a clothes shop and buy Trek shirts - they don’t have the same level of cultural “cool” that the others do.

I’m not saying people don’t recognise Trek, or that they aren’t aware of it, but non trekkers don’t seem to treat it in the same way as some of the other large sci-fi franchises.

I always worry that I’m gonna get yelled at (like Homer Simpson does when he goes back to college - “NEEEEERRRRDDDD!”) when I wear a Trek shirt. But not a Star Wars one. Maybe I’m projecting, but the cultural saturation of Star Trek doesn’t seem to be the same as some of the others - at least to casual fans.

Oh, Enterprise was high-end production show that went more or less successfully for 4 years. In the realms of television, that's pretty good. It's only a disappointment in regards of expectations -

Am I right in thinking it had dwindling numbers (which led to its cancellation)? I may have assumed that or, more likely, misremembered it!

Looked at it without context, it's one of the better shows out there. It's just under the massive weight of expectations from a new Star Trek shows that it crumbles under.

In terms of production I tend to agree. I’m still not sure I’d have taken to Burnham if she was just “space marine” rather than a Starfleet officer, but yes - the expectations (or “trekspectations”?) were always going to be high for DSC precisely because it was a Trek show.

If only they’d have made an anaimated half hour comedy instead...

*can open, worms everywhere*