Does GENS succeed or fail as an introduction to TNG for new viewers?

[Lance]

I recall reading somewhere, I'm not sure where, that one of the items on the shopping list of requirements placed on Generations was the need for it to adopt a 'brass tacks' approach to introducing the TNG characters to the big screen, ie that those people had to be drawn in such a way that people who hadn't seen the TV show could learn about who they are and how they interact. This was largely thought necessary IIRC because TNG the series still hadn't actually been seen in all markets, whereas the movies mostly had been. In this regard, the 'soft opening' aboard Enterprise-B, following on in tone from the six films before it, feels like a good transition.

But how do we feel they did on the TNG side of things? I genuinely think they did a pretty good job establishing Data's non-emotions through the holodeck blunder and his subplot stands up fine without needing to know backstory (that he has an emotion chip that he's never used is more or less all you need to know, the whole story behind it is basically non-essential information). The Geordi/Data friendship is also suitably established enough that his feelings of guilt over not being able to save his friend later feels like a good payoff. Likewise, Deanna's counselling role is pretty much established well through the Picard quarters scene, and Riker as subordinate officer is more less a given though there's nothing to really add meat on who he is as a person. The baddassery of both he and Worf are basically AWOL, the battle scene we do get feels like a fail because the Enterprise goes kaput for such flimsy reasons. Neither makes much of an impression, nor Beverly, all you learn about her as a neophyte viewer is she apparently hasn't got a sense of humour.

But IMHO the biggest casualty is Picard. The learned leader? The brilliant philosophical mind? If you've never seen TNG before, and are basing your first impression of Kirk's replacement on this movie alone, then it's a bad introduction. The death of Robert and Rene means nothing much if you aren't already invested in them. He spends two thirds of the movie skulking around feeling sorry for himself. And when we get to the big finale, he gets schooled by Soren, and needs Mack Daddy Kirk to come and help him kick butt. This must be a bad first impression.

I contend that the other three movies arguably do a better job. Maybe it was just the script being rushed. But I definitely feel like, the movie fails on this front. If you've been watching the characters for 7 seasons and have some feeling for them as people already it's fine. But if you lived in one of those countries the execs were so worried about, I can't help feeling you were probably left lacking.

But what say you guys??

 

[F. King Daniel]

My impression was that it was convinced as a continuation, not a fresh start.

 

[Dukhat]

It’s absolutely not an introduction for new viewers, and I’ll tell you why. When I first saw GEN in the theater, I went with a girl who had never seen Star Trek before in her life. She assumed that the Enterprise-B and the Enterprise-D were the same ship, and that Harriman and Picard were the same guy. I know this because she asked me why the old bald guy was talking with a British accent when he spoke with an American accent earlier in the film.

And no, she wasn’t a moron.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yeah, no. Generations is not an introduction to TNG at all. Hell, it's basically an ordinary episode with more polish to it.

Ironically, First Contact, which does work as an introduction overdoes it in being accessible to newbies, particularly with the clunky exposition. "The Borg, our most deadly enemy..."

 

[Kor]

It doesn't make any sense if you're not familiar with the characters from the TV series.

It’s absolutely not an introduction for new viewers, and I’ll tell you why. When I first saw GEN in the theater, I went with a girl who had never seen Star Trek before in her life. She assumed that the Enterprise-B and the Enterprise-D were the same ship, and that Harriman and Picard were the same guy. I know this because she asked me why the old bald guy was talking with a British accent when he spoke with an American accent earlier in the film.

And no, she wasn’t a moron.

Well, right before we see the TNG characters, the screen says "78 years later." Did she think Picard was supposed to be well over a hundred years old?

Kor

 

[Dukhat]

It doesn't make any sense if you're not familiar with the characters from the TV series.



Well, right before we see the TNG characters, the screen says "78 years later." Did she think Picard was supposed to be well over a hundred years old?

Kor

She was familiar with the science fiction concept of people having a longer lifespan several centuries from now. As I said, she’s wasn’t a moron.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

It's honestly hard for me to remember characters names in movies like all the time. As a fan, this sounds ridiculous, but as just a person it's a reasonable mistake. Having not been a comic book reader, it took me forever to remember most of the Avengers regular names aside from Tony Stark or Chris Evans. Wait...

 

[Dukhat]

I can’t remember a single characters’ name from Rogue One. And I liked that movie.

 

[bigglesworth]

I think FC would have been a much better way of introducing TNG to the big screen. Since we're changing things, FC Picard needs a rewrite, no borg queen or have the queen be some sort of manifestation of the borg collective and not a physical person with their own unique consciousness.

 

[Tenacity]

I went with a girl who had never seen Star Trek before in her life. She assumed ... that Harriman and Picard were the same guy.

Interesting, she assumed that Picard was a aged Harriman? Coming in blank that would be a reasonable assumption.

As a "origin story" Generations very much wasn't one, and it's hard to believe that this was TPTB's intent. If that was what they were intentionally shooting for the story line should have been slightly different

Assuming the audience already knew they were going to see some kind of sci-fi move, the story could have briefly introduced the main characters and some facts about Starfleet and it basic mission without taking too much time doing so.

A captain's log would have serve to do the Starfleet and it's mission intro, the character's intros could have been more spread out and only added a few minutes to the run time.

It might not have been necessary to introduce Kirk, while the general public might lack details of the character, "Captain Kirk" is a low level cultural icon and the audience could be expected to figure out what was going on with that one character.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

It’s absolutely not an introduction for new viewers, and I’ll tell you why. When I first saw GEN in the theater, I went with a girl who had never seen Star Trek before in her life. She assumed that the Enterprise-B and the Enterprise-D were the same ship, and that Harriman and Picard were the same guy. I know this because she asked me why the old bald guy was talking with a British accent when he spoke with an American accent earlier in the film.

And no, she wasn’t a moron.

My first impression reading this was, "Huh?" But the more I thought about it, the more I think I can see where she was coming from. If you're not versed in Trek lore, if you miss the "78 Years Later" caption, it's not entirely clear what happens in the transition from the 23rd-century to the 24th-century. Worf's promotion ceremony is simply presented as the next scene, there's about half an hour between external shots of the Enterprise-B and the Enterprise-D, and uniform differences can be chalked up to militaries having different uniforms for different duty roles.

As the years have gone by, I've become convinced that the Enterprise-B prologue, while nice for fans, is unnecessary where it is and would have been better positioned as a flashback sequence later in the film. Just start the film with the Enterprise-D cold, introduce the characters to the audience as though it's their first time seeing them, and even if there's not a flashback to Kirk's "death" aboard the B, different dialogue inside the Nexus will suffice to properly introduce Kirk to audiences. The prologue confuses more than it clarifies matters for new audiences, and it wastes valuable film minutes introducing characters who will never be seen again.

 

[suarezguy]

I think the film objectively does introduce the characters, aside from Worf, and their relationships pretty well-but it definitely, not really surprisingly, does work better if you've seen the show and view the film as its continuation.

Worf is short-changed but while there's also not much to Riker I think you do get a sense of his somewhat-jerkish humor & that Picard generally gives him leeway including in tactical leadership. It could be nice if he had gotten some of the bonding with/disciplining of Data.

IMHO the biggest casualty is Picard. The learned leader? The brilliant philosophical mind? If you've never seen TNG before, and are basing your first impression of Kirk's replacement on this movie alone, then it's a bad introduction. The death of Robert and Rene means nothing much if you aren't already invested in them. He spends two thirds of the movie skulking around feeling sorry for himself.

I think the film effectively established that that kind of behavior was pretty out-of-character for him (he ordinarily was a great leader, both commanding and close), from a major event but related to that his family and past usually was important to him. And it introduced a good parallel with Soran and while he didn't seem brilliant he did understand him and try to reason with him.

And when we get to the big finale, he gets schooled by Soren, and needs Mack Daddy Kirk to come and help him kick butt. This must be a bad first impression.

Eh, I liked that in the movie and the next one he had action scenes but wasn't great in them, the movie was willing to admit, even kind of subtly emphasize that he was physically weaker than his predecessor but not outright weak (and both were good captains in different ways).

 

[Lance]

My first impression reading this was, "Huh?" But the more I thought about it, the more I think I can see where she was coming from. If you're not versed in Trek lore, if you miss the "78 Years Later" caption, it's not entirely clear what happens in the transition from the 23rd-century to the 24th-century. Worf's promotion ceremony is simply presented as the next scene, there's about half an hour between external shots of the Enterprise-B and the Enterprise-D, and uniform differences can be chalked up to militaries having different uniforms for different duty roles.

It also doesn't adequately explain the holodeck for viewers who may be unfamiliar with it. First Contact introduces us the the holodeck from the outside, but Gens does the opposite, and for any non-Trekkie it could be hard to understand exactly why they're on a 18th century sailing ship.

 

[The Wormhole]

Assuming the audience already knew they were going to see some kind of sci-fi move, the story could have briefly introduced the main characters and some facts about Starfleet and it basic mission without taking too much time doing so.

A captain's log would have serve to do the Starfleet and it's mission intro, the character's intros could have been more spread out and only added a few minutes to the run time.

IIRC, Berman was against explaining Starfleet in the TNG films. I think there's an interview where he says "everyone knows what Starfleet is, we don't need to keep explaining it."

It also doesn't adequately explain the holodeck for viewers who may be unfamiliar with it. First Contact introduces us the the holodeck from the outside, but Gens does the opposite, and for any non-Trekkie it could be hard to understand exactly why they're on a 18th century sailing ship.

I imagine non-Trekkies who don't know what the holodeck is must be righteously confused watching twenty minutes or so on a futuristic spaceship, and then we cut to a scene captioned "78 years later" and everything's gone totally eighteenth century.

IMO, the movie also did a poor job establishing the Duras Sisters.

 

[Mojochi]

Interesting, she assumed that Picard was a aged Harriman? Coming in blank that would be a reasonable assumption.

I honestly have to agree, & I've never actually thought about that before

My first impression reading this was, "Huh?" But the more I thought about it, the more I think I can see where she was coming from. If you're not versed in Trek lore, if you miss the "78 Years Later" caption, it's not entirely clear what happens in the transition from the 23rd-century to the 24th-century. Worf's promotion ceremony is simply presented as the next scene, there's about half an hour between external shots of the Enterprise-B and the Enterprise-D, and uniform differences can be chalked up to militaries having different uniforms for different duty roles.

Hell, the Enterprise D is barely shown at all in that damn movie, because the producers hated it & wanted it to die. Frankly, does Picard's uniform look that drastically different than Harriman's?

Red jacket, turtle neck, gold badge. I mean c'mon. Esthetically, there's only minor differences that could even be explained as simply as casual vs dress, which would also be a reasonable assumption, since Harriman was on his maiden voyage, hosting the media & honored veterans

Honestly, one of the 1st things fresh viewers look to in a movie is for things to make sense in a linear way, so it stands to reason someone might jump to thinking of them linearly like that. I mean from a noob's perspective, why the hell would you be showing some completely irrelevant captain anyhow? So yeah, sure, it's probably an older version of that other captainy guy. That actually kind of makes me wonder a lot about how much of Star Trek is just taken for granted that everybody will get, but might not be so clear cut

The funny part is that if a noob Trek viewer ever asked me why Picard was talking with a British accent, under any circumstance, I probably couldn't help being a dick & saying "Because he's French".

All in all, I have to agree with most of what everyone's saying. I'd never recommend it as an intro to TNG

 

[Qonundrum]

My impression was that it was convinced as a continuation, not a fresh start.

^^this

It cannot succeed or fail on a something that was not the goal.

Even TMP was more a continuation, using the big movie experience to explain the refit and updated designs.

 

[Qonundrum]

It also doesn't adequately explain the holodeck for viewers who may be unfamiliar with it. First Contact introduces us the the holodeck from the outside, but Gens does the opposite, and for any non-Trekkie it could be hard to understand exactly why they're on a 18th century sailing ship.

Except TNG's first movie came out months after the TV show ended and was still fresh in peoples' minds. TOS had 79 episodes repeated ad nauseum and roughly a decade's worth of gap between old and new.

 

[Dukhat]

My first impression reading this was, "Huh?" But the more I thought about it, the more I think I can see where she was coming from. If you're not versed in Trek lore, if you miss the "78 Years Later" caption, it's not entirely clear what happens in the transition from the 23rd-century to the 24th-century. Worf's promotion ceremony is simply presented as the next scene, there's about half an hour between external shots of the Enterprise-B and the Enterprise-D, and uniform differences can be chalked up to militaries having different uniforms for different duty roles.

That's the thing: Most Trek fans who know the shows and movies like the back of their hands and post regularly on bbs's like this one often don't understand that non-fans simply don't know the same things they do. Same with Star Wars. I went to see The Phantom Menace with a buddy who had never seen the original trilogy until the Special Editions came out in the late '90's. Therefore he didn't make the connection that the Emperor and Palpatine (much less Darth Sidious) were all the same guy. Which is also why someone new to Star Wars needs to see the films in the order in which they were made, not chronologically from TPM onwards.

Anyway, back to GEN:

As the years have gone by, I've become convinced that the Enterprise-B prologue, while nice for fans, is unnecessary where it is and would have been better positioned as a flashback sequence later in the film. Just start the film with the Enterprise-D cold, introduce the characters to the audience as though it's their first time seeing them, and even if there's not a flashback to Kirk's "death" aboard the B, different dialogue inside the Nexus will suffice to properly introduce Kirk to audiences. The prologue confuses more than it clarifies matters for new audiences, and it wastes valuable film minutes introducing characters who will never be seen again.

Exactly right. For example, nobody needed to know who Demora Sulu was, since her role was irrelevant to the plot and the rest of the movie. She was just fanwank for TOS trufans. However, I think there had to be at least some preface introducing the Nexus and Soran's & Guinan's relationship with it.

 

[Tenacity]

Except TNG's first movie came out months after the TV show ended and was still fresh in peoples' minds.

No, it was fresh in the viewer's minds.

People who go to scifi movies don't alway watch scifi TV series.

 

[Lance]

Indeed. And the thing the execs were worried about is that 1994 wasn't like 2018, TV back then wasn't fast-tracked around the world, in some international markets TNG may not have even been seen yet, whereas the TOS movies are much more likely to have been seen. Hence the notion that perhaps they needed to reintroduce the basic concepts and characters in such a way that it satisfies the loyal followers, but that doesn't leave movie goers in the dark for who TNG and its characters may not even be a thing.

Like I said, I do believe First Contact does do these basic things. It's actually quite a good 'gateway movie' into the TNG universe. But GENS, on some levels, does rather take for granted that people know what a holodeck is or who these characters are.

I do ponder, however, that question of TMP. It's a peculiar fish in that it was concieved as a TV pilot and frankly still has TV pilot written in its DNA, from launching the new Enterprise to bringing the band back together, but yea in some areas it too assumes a knowledge at least of Kirk and Spock... but the wider Star Trek universe, I'd argue, it uses TOS more as a vague history, Kirk talks about "five years out there", but the newbie movie goer needn't have actually been invested in those 79 episodes to understand tha basics, that Kirk is the ships former Captain and is commanding her again in special circumstances. TMP doesn't really leave anything unexplained when it comes to basics like that. Everything is explained fresh. TWOK likewise doesn't need 'Space Seed' in order to work, everything we need to learn about Kirk's and Khan's history is reestablished fresh. GENERATIONS makes no such concessions.