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At what point should a Starship not be able to do barrel rolls?

Not to go Trek v Wars, but the starship Enterprise has always had the manueverability of the Falcon despite a mass closer to an Imperial capital ship.

As someone who *does* go Trek v. Wars all the time, you are more correct than you know.

While zipping starships may look silly to our eyes, the simple fact is that the fault lies not in our starships, but in ourselves. A few hundred years ago, tall ships traveling without care of wind direction, and indeed without tall sail of any kind, would've looked pretty silly, too.

That said, for aesthetic and some technical reasons, ships aren't often shown going absolutely nuts, despite the fact that it would be very effective at 300,000km versus lightspeed weaponry to suddenly not be where the beam was fired at a full second ago. (As an aside, there was an old sci-fi story where two warring sides didn't have an arms race in the classic sense. Their battles were won or lost based on the accuracy of their computerized "predictors" that would tell them where to shoot in advance of their foe's arrival to that spot, like a higher tech version of our old automatically-leading gunsights.)

That said, we have seen traces of the maneuverability we would expect. Here I do not refer to the sharp high-speed turn of the Ambassador and Nebula Class ships in the opening scenes of the DS9 pilot (video linked from here: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#STL ), though that's not bad. Instead, look to the graphic of the Kumeh Maneuver from "Peak Performance"(TNG2) in which the Enterprise-D is shown to whip around from behind a planet and then stop cold.

See an old capture here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/videos/peakperf.mpg

I also have some straight-line acceleration demos available here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTua45BtkvDD24H3p1atvl_o5shdwFGXf

Put simply, any ship that can zip off at 1000g should be perfectly capable of having a veritable maneuverability conniption fit on-camera. It may not scale well to our experience, but that's our issue.
 
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this is an amazingly well done cartoon starring the voice of Mel Blanc on how to gauge motion/distance in a moving vehicle against a target moving faster than you: to wit, how to be a successful waist gunner on a B-17 bomber. They had to train recruits how to do this without teaching them trig, and they had to do it in a hurry, when initially return rates for flying fortress crews weren't very good. I digress.

We think of star trek ships as battleships or navy cruisers but the better analogy is more like a large bomber, albeit they are seldom shown flying in formation. Like a plane they are constantly in motion (the command "full stop" is possibly one of the dumbest two words issued repeatedly in trek. full stop in relation to what?)

Point being, as is pointed out in the old film, aboard a craft like a starship motion relative to the enemy craft would be confusing, as just like battling above loud level, there isn't much of a point of reference. Even worse if your gravity and inertia is all somehow artificial. There's no reason any starship wouldn't fly like a "fighter plane" as they have magic inertia handling devices, grav plating to avoid blackouts as well as crushing, and the ability to accelerate at what would, to us, be incredible velocities, very quickly. It's a machine designed to move freely in 3 dimensions, 4 in certain circumstances, and the inability to think "plane" and not "boat" was what caused Khan to loose his battle with Kirk.
 
(As an aside, there was an old sci-fi story where two warring sides didn't have an arms race in the classic sense. Their battles were won or lost based on the accuracy of their computerized "predictors" that would tell them where to shoot in advance of their foe's arrival to that spot, like a higher tech version of our old automatically-leading gunsights.)

TBH, that doesn't seem very plausible. If inertia is even a slight constraint, near-luminal speeds are going to severely constrain your trajectory. An enemy doesn't need to tag you. It just had to A) further constrain your possible flight path through manuevering (dogfighting, basically), mining/missiles, or suppressing fire and then B) saturate any remaining routes with fire.

It's not that different from today. If a modern fighter can be tracked by an enemy, it's dead. Missiles are getting so capable, that the no-escape-zone (NEZ, the point where you cannot outrun or out turn a missile, usually about ½ of max range) is slowly expanding out to the detection range of fighter's radar. Next gen missiles will have an NEZ out to about 100nm (and by extension, be able to shoot down non-maneuvering targets like cargo planes out to 200+nm). MBDA Meteor was the first of this new breed.

Laser weapons just add the wrinkle of "maybe I can shoot down incoming missiles", but you can answer that by ripple-firing mutiple missiles...which is a common tactic anyway. Especially among operators of Russian equipment. You can also program the missiles to fly evasive maneuvers in the terminal phase. The new American AGM-158C antiship missile has a full blown AI for terminal evasion.
 
TBH, that doesn't seem very plausible. If inertia is even a slight constraint, near-luminal speeds are going to severely constrain your trajectory.

Cool and informative post, but velocity isn't the issue. Whether you are stopped or doing 0.9c, adjusting your heading 90 degrees and blasting off in the new direction will displace you in the same amount, unless the subspace mass reduction effects on ships nullify basic physics that much further.

It doesn't take much getting out of one's own way to be elsewhere in one second versus a lightspeed beam at 300,000 kilometers. Maneuverable torpedoes would be better in such cases.
 
In one Voyager episode (I believe it's "Fury") They said that at warp you can only go in a straight line. So in order to change direction they have to slow down to impulse first.
 
Without inertial dampers, the people would be squashed all over the walls the first time they'd go to warp...

Why? The ship's not moving. It's moving the space around the ship. Plus however the heck subspace plays a roll in it. Thus no inertia to squish anyone with.

And with inertial dampers, there's no inertia, IE a perfect maneuvrability.

Do we know that "damping" is the same as "eliminating"?
 
In one Voyager episode (I believe it's "Fury") They said that at warp you can only go in a straight line. So in order to change direction they have to slow down to impulse first.

There's actually quite a few counter-examples where ships change course while at warp. Even the Kazon has attacked Voyager and veered away at warp speed (in "Basics", IIRC). There's some time travel shenanigans in "Fury" so who knows, the whole thing could've been a parallel timeline where their warp tech doesn't allow for course changes at warp. :)

Why? The ship's not moving. It's moving the space around the ship. Plus however the heck subspace plays a roll in it. Thus no inertia to squish anyone with.

In "The Menagerie" when Kirk and Mendez's shuttle runs out of fuel while they are chasing after the Enterprise at warp they end up coasting. It didn't seem like a sudden drop to sublight either because the Enterprise at warp didn't leave them in the dust. Spock's program only instructed the Enterprise to reverse engines to stop but not go backwards to retrieve the shuttle and the shuttle caught up to them pretty quickly by coasting.

I think that episodes like "The Menagerie", "The Squire of Gothos" and "The Ultimate Computer" where the Enterprise has to apply reverse thrust to slow down/stop suddenly would indicate that a warp ship has some kind of inertia to it.
 
Cool and informative post, but velocity isn't the issue. Whether you are stopped or doing 0.9c, adjusting your heading 90 degrees and blasting off in the new direction will displace you in the same amount, unless the subspace mass reduction effects on ships nullify basic physics that much further.

The difficulty in intercepting an object (and therefore the viability of evasive maneuvering) is the amount of energy an interceptor needs to create a new intercept point with a target that's changed it's trajectory.

A tank turning 90 degrees in 0.1 seconds is still going 30kph and the difference amounts to meters. That's a minuscule amount of delta-v for a near-supersonic missile and is why surface vehicles can't dodge airstrikes.

The delta-v required to intercept a maneuvering aircraft is what dictates the NEZ I mentioned above. If you're within the NEZ, you could do a complete 180 with zero loss in speed (which is impossible, but bear with me) and you're still dead. Even if you get lucky, and dodge the missile, you've burned up precious seconds flipping around while your enemy sets up an even more advantageous follow-up shot.

That's actually a tactic. You fire one missile, even outside the NEZ, forcing your target to "go defensive" which means they have to fly a certain way to avoid your missile, and that way almost always means they can't really shoot back as you. You then close the range and fire a second shot that (barring malfunction) is a sure-thing.

In space, you're dealing with the same issues. Sure, the non-maneuvering range of a missile is nearly infinite, but you don't have infinite detection (and tracking) range, and everything maneuvers somewhat. So weapons will still have a practical max range. There will still be a NEZ. Tactics are still broadly the same:
  1. If, at all possible, find the enemy first while avoiding detection yourself. Cloaking device FTW.
  2. If detected, avoid the NEZ of an enemy, while forcing said enemy into your (or allied) NEZ.
  3. If you can't do either of the above, withdraw ASAP. Sticking around is going to ruin your day.
Energy weapons just expand the NEZ to the tracking range. Which, honestly, isn't that big of a game changer. You can always build more, or better missiles, to do the same thing. This is the conclusion of the DoD as well. The DoD builds a new missile whenever their new radar sets can track further than existing missiles can hit. They're not planning to put lasers on warships because they're qualitatively better weapons. They're putting lasers on ships because a laser costs $100 to fire while a missile costs up $4 million (SM-6).

About the only way this breaks down is if relativistic speeds require an engine so large and complex that it's infeasible to build disposable motors for missiles/torpedoes. At that point, yeah, energy weapons are the only way to go. Tactics still revolve around constraining the enemy's ability to maneuver in order to minimize the complexity of your shooting solution.

In one Voyager episode (I believe it's "Fury") They said that at warp you can only go in a straight line. So in order to change direction they have to slow down to impulse first.

Voyager also said that going Warp 10 turns you into salamanders. I recommend we don't take Voyager too seriously when it comes to the limits of warp drive. Especially the stuff that's contradicted by just about every other episode of Star Trek, including other episodes of Voyager.

I think that episodes like "The Menagerie", "The Squire of Gothos" and "The Ultimate Computer" where the Enterprise has to apply reverse thrust to slow down/stop suddenly would indicate that a warp ship has some kind of inertia to it.

That's, mostly, only true with TOS which treated warp speed the same as impulse; Newtonian but faster. By the time TNG came around, warp speed was treated more like how uniderth describes. It's non-newtonian. You go from warp 9 to dead stop instantly when the warp field collapses.
 
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That's, mostly, only true with TOS which treated warp speed the same as impulse; Newtonian but faster. By the time TNG came around, warp speed was treated more like how uniderth describes. It's non-newtonian. You go from warp 9 to dead stop instantly when the warp field collapses.

That's a good point as I was coming from a TOS/TOS movie perspective. I'm not surprised that TNG and later incarnations treats it differently.
 
If impulse is the speed of light as it seems then Valeris piloted Enterprise out of spacedock a the quarter of the speed of light, which is insanely fast!!!
 
If impulse is the speed of light as it seems then Valeris piloted Enterprise out of spacedock a the quarter of the speed of light, which is insanely fast!!!

In TOS and the TOS movies, "impulse power" can mean many things but I've not seen any reference to the speed of light. "One quarter impulse power" is more of a power setting rather than a speed setting. And given that, the actual speed and acceleration can depend on how much actual impulse power or energy is available, number of active impulse engines, local terrain effects, how much thrust the helmsman is actually applying, etc.

The times Kirk has called an actual speed setting for impulse engines were in:
"Elaan of Troyius"
KIRK: Mister Chekov, lay in a course for Troyius. Mister Sulu, impulse drive, speed factor point zero three seven.
SULU: Impulse drive, Captain?
KIRK: Yes, that's correct, Mister Sulu. Sublight factor point zero three seven.​
and "The Motion Picture"
KIRK: Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead, warp point five.​
 
You go from warp 9 to dead stop instantly when the warp field collapses.

Do you have an example of instant stop without outside interference?

In "Brothers"(TNG) the saucer section would take two minutes to drop out of warp upon high warp saucer separation.

Additionally, in "Terra Prime"(ENT) the mining facility-ship went to warp with a five-second burst but took an additional fifteen seconds to drop out of warp.

"Force of Nature"(TNG) also featured 'saturation' of the warp nacelles in order to maintain as much warp velocity as possible after a 6.3 second warp pulse (which even at max wouldn't get them up to high speed) because the ship would otherwise drop out of warp too fast, not instantly. The saturation kept them at warp for two minutes.
 
"impulse power" can mean many things but I've not seen any reference to the speed of light.

I call this the "impulse supercruise" argument, and it is actually not uncommon. There are rare instances where impulse seems too fast, but it is far better to try to rationalize these than to try to rewrite the tech of the whole show in such an odd way.
 
In TOS and the TOS movies, "impulse power" can mean many things but I've not seen any reference to the speed of light. "One quarter impulse power" is more of a power setting rather than a speed setting. And given that, the actual speed and acceleration can depend on how much actual impulse power or energy is available, number of active impulse engines, local terrain effects, how much thrust the helmsman is actually applying, etc.

The times Kirk has called an actual speed setting for impulse engines were in:
"Elaan of Troyius"
KIRK: Mister Chekov, lay in a course for Troyius. Mister Sulu, impulse drive, speed factor point zero three seven.
SULU: Impulse drive, Captain?
KIRK: Yes, that's correct, Mister Sulu. Sublight factor point zero three seven.​
and "The Motion Picture"
KIRK: Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead, warp point five.​

The way I understand it. Warp 1 coincides with full impulse and the speed of light (which means that we're neither slower than light nor faster than light), thence Warp point five is the same as half impulse.
 
Warp one has never been full impulse.

The only time warp and impulse have been related for FTL is once in TNG's first season when warp six was ordered and Geordi responded "aye, sir, full impulse", which could've been taken to suggest that the warp field was basically relativity-teflon and impulse drive was always doing the pushing of the ship.

However, literally every other example countermands that thinking.
 
Warp one has never been full impulse.

The only time warp and impulse have been related for FTL is once in TNG's first season when warp six was ordered and Geordi responded "aye, sir, full impulse", which could've been taken to suggest that the warp field was basically relativity-teflon and impulse drive was always doing the pushing of the ship.

However, literally every other example countermands that thinking.

I believe that what it meant is that Geordi was under the influence of some alien entity unless it was a generous quantity of alcohol.
 
Do you have an example of instant stop without outside interference?

Your examples actually go along with @STR's comment, "You go from warp 9 to dead stop instantly when the warp field collapses." I think @STR's comment about TNG and other warp drives outside of TOS is that when their engines' warp field collapses they are observed to come to a near complete stop or a very very slow sublight speed. (Or perhaps the ship reverts back to the sublight speed it had prior to going to warp?)

I call this the "impulse supercruise" argument, and it is actually not uncommon. There are rare instances where impulse seems too fast, but it is far better to try to rationalize these than to try to rewrite the tech of the whole show in such an odd way.

I just treat them like comics and consider them different universes with different histories and tech. Makes it a whole lot easier to rationalize and reconcile ;)
 
The way I understand it. Warp 1 coincides with full impulse and the speed of light (which means that we're neither slower than light nor faster than light), thence Warp point five is the same as half impulse.

That's an interesting idea but that's not how it is depicted in TOS or the TOS movies, AFAIK.

"Full impulse" is directing that the maximum capability of the impulse engines to be used by helm. Even though there are variables that can affect the actual speed of the ship we can be certain is that given a specific ship at a specific moment that it's "full impulse" will be quicker to accelerate than it's "half impulse" ;)

For example in speed variability, "Full Impulse power" was used by the BOP in "The Voyage Home" while flying in the atmosphere and it certainly was not going the speed of light. In "The Undiscovered Country" the Excelsior is going home on "full impulse power" and it probably was cruising at some FTL speed if it wanted to get home at some respectable time.
 
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