To baldly go. Oh.
And be mordred, to Picards Arthur, except they botch the landing and kill Percival. Or maybe Gawain. It’s fuzzy. Camelot ends anyway, or gets seatbelts.
Star Trek 4 Hits A Snag
- Thread starter Doc Mugatu
- Start date
To baldly go. Oh.
And be mordred, to Picards Arthur, except they botch the landing and kill Percival. Or maybe Gawain. It’s fuzzy. Camelot ends anyway, or gets seatbelts.
Without a seeing the normal, extra aspects to their relationship, their whole relationship arc didn't seem 3 dimensional . We see Uhura and Spock mostly bickering in the first two movies. In fact that's was out first introduction of them in the 09 movie. Yes, there was some dramatic emotional moments.
Because they introduced them so fast and had to put everything together in 3 movies the relationship seemed like the typical hot/cold thing with little in between.
I was waiting for the famous McCoy/Spock dynamic to show up too, but then I realized because of the way they introduced the characters-- quickly mashing everything together-- it was going to be harder.
The original show spent time building it, the movies had to quickly attempt to recreate it. ITD would have been a great opportunity but it already had too much going on. McCoy hardly seemed in it.
Even Carl Urban made a similar comment about it.
That's the dilemma--the franchise can only make so many movies and it has to capture and recreate all the chemistry and experiences but has to do it in maybe 5 to 6 movies, if the franchise is successful.
It makes Nutrek seems like it's missing a lot of material and has to compensate.
yeah, the only thing I got from that story is that Shinzon was abused and abandoned to a prison camp by the Romulans since he was a child.
So as result he hates humans wants to get revenge on the federation and destroy it. Others say that's not really the reason, but that's how it comes off. Makes little sense.
Why do people keep expecting sense from badly damaged people who have been abused their entire lives? That's not how it works in real life.
Why do makers of series that are essentially fantasy keep relying on abuse as a quick shorthand to make a villain?
Because as Uhura points out, Star Trek is not real life.
Shinzo is supposed to be jealous of the life Picard had. But too much gets left on the cutting room floor, and not enough made it into the drafts. I am not even a Sela fan, but her inclusion as a moraine figure would have at least made some sense.
Doesn’t make Shinzon’s story or character compelling. It’s why many find Tasha Yar’s death unsatisfactory, even if inglorious and senseless deaths like that occur in real life.
“He’s just craaaaaaazy” as a villain’s motive is pretty weak. I know many revolting against TWOK like to make that criticism on Khan’s characterization, but I can at least understand where he comes from and why, unlike trying to understand why Shinzon mind rapes Troi, aside from using it as a set up for Troi’s “remember me” moment.
Too many vengeance-crazed bad guys. Was hoping Beyond was gonna move beyond that. That was why I felt kinda hoodwinked after the writers said they were going in new (old) direction of exploring/encounters. And still there was a "bad guy" at the heart of it. Who was defeated, not turned or some other TOS-ish solution. So if there's a next one I 'll wait and read a synopsis before I go. Same with DSC if it doesn't get better. No more automatic viewing just because it has Trek in the name.
Which means the Federation and especially Starfleet, need to stop coming across as a homo sapians only club, with aliens as their backing singers. (Especially since tv budgets have the resources to show Federation diversity.)
Last edited:
Largely because people do not want real life in Star Trek.
Yes, I know that's a generalization.
please don't jump on my third grade public school education, but "uraei?"There must be no Uraei in the JJVerse.
Well, there's this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uraeus (plural of Uraeus is Uraei)
but I think he may be referring to something from one of the Trek novels. Exactly what that something is (and why there must be none of it) will be up to @thribs to explain.
Maybe it wasn't intentional, but as a viewer all I got out it was seeing Shinzon spending his entire life in a Romulan labor camp and then spending the last two hours of the movie going on a revenge rant against Earth, while sounding like poet as he's doing it.
In fact after revealing his 'destroy earth' plan, each time he makes a statement about how he suffered under the Romulans probably makes the viewers even more confused.
True-- The fact that the same thing already happened to Troi on the TV only makes it even more odd.
The movie doesn't even make it look like he's doing it because he's crazy. It makes it look like the plot needs an evil someone to threaten earth with a huge weapon. I don't even remember what the weapon was...a huge ship with a green ray or something?
Very true. The villain trope is starting to get really overcrowded now..
If you want to see it done the right way, show a quiet woman who is so crazy she blows up a big church (with a whole lot of people inside) just so she can escape an upcoming trial. And drinks wine while she watches the building collapse.
There was no warning, no plot, no discussing it . She just did it - in the first few minutes of the show.
You're not going to get much real life in Nemesis. Wesley Crusher was suddenly in the film eating at Troi and Riker's wedding as if he never went anywhere (cut scene), Worf was there acting like he was part of the crew as if he never got promoted to Ambassador, Picard jumps a dune buggy off a cliff into a waiting shuttle, Troi gets telepathically molested in the same way for the second time in her life, and Seven of Nine was even going to be in it. Seven of Nine.
The other Treks were all much better at this. You start with TNG having three non humans typically on the bridge, and one non-earth human. Ds9 is up to its ears in non human characters. Voyager has three earth based humans, (though Paris may have grown up in lots of places or on a starship) most of the other leads are non-human, one way or another. DSC is a step back, because even though some of the bridge crew may be non human we never hear from them. ENT was also a retrograde step, but at least there it made sense.
Troi’s rape does have an explanation on screen, it’s just not very well done. The idea is he’s never seen a ‘human’ woman before, and so immediately lust after her and carries out his act. It’s an Igrane/Arthur moment, with the Viceroy as Merlin, because they are glazing that film in Arthurian legend; but it’s cackhanded, not least as they are borrowing the idea and the imagery, with none of the follow through. We see it again with the Picard/Shinzon fight to the death, though again, because they have divested the imagery of its roots, it just doesn’t work. The idea of the TNG crew as a kind of Camelot works, going to L’Morte D’Arthure for its end doesn’t work, and certainly not the way they did it here. Not least as there is no Guinevere figure, no Lancelot, and trying to shoehorn Riker into that role isn’t going to work, and they know it is t going to work. Once you throw in the ego of Stewart and Spiner over who gets the death scene etc, it really doesn’t pan out.
Edison isn’t really driven by “revenge.” He’s convinced that the Federation is breeding weakness and is full of contempt for it. Yeah, he’s bitter at Starfleet but his motivation is that the members of the Federation are turning into a bunch of snowflakes because they didn’t have to walk uphill both ways to school.
He wasn't really, the Romulans were goading him into doing it, and he was going along with it so he had their fleet at his disposal.
Krall makes a lot more sense if you just assume that he lost his mind, maybe that alien technology he used made him lose more than his original appearance. He acted like a crazy person, the video log Uhura analyzed where he still was human.. it definitely looked like, to me, he was losing his mind because of the desperation and feeling they were just abandoned there. Him and his crew probably found themselves in quite hard conditions and who knows what he had to do to survive before and after he found that alien technology.
He also seems to have some sort of weird crush for Uhura, lol (who would blame him?) I think he was intrigued because of how brave she is from the start and how much she believes in starfleet, he seemed to want to convert her or something. Prove that HE was right. Who knows, maybe she also reminded him of his own lost humanity. But anyway, he definitely acted as someone with psychological issues..some kind of ptsd gone terribly wrong. And the fact he never truly believed in starfleet exacerbated it all.
Crazy they have a new planet with mysterious aliens that we never saw and know nothing about. What a waste. Did he suck the life of the rest of his crew and the remaining aliens? Were the aliens already extinct because of their own technology? How many people Krall killed without the federation knowing? Or maybe they knew and they let him in exchange of something...
Jaylah is a mystery too, we only know he killed her family, but not where she came from. Unlike Krall, loneliness and desperation didn't make her lose her mind and want revenge, she just wanted to leave that damn place so that her father hadn't died in vain. However, in a realistic story she would probably need some help too before joining starfleet because that girl had been separated from any contact with people, especially not dangerous ones, for so long.
I feel like beyond is an incomplete story though. Like we should get back to altamid at some point because that planet had a story to tell, but we only got krall story instead. They didn't even really explore it.
He also seems to have some sort of weird crush for Uhura, lol (who would blame him?) I think he was intrigued because of how brave she is from the start and how much she believes in starfleet, he seemed to want to convert her or something. Prove that HE was right. Who knows, maybe she also reminded him of his own lost humanity. But anyway, he definitely acted as someone with psychological issues..some kind of ptsd gone terribly wrong. And the fact he never truly believed in starfleet exacerbated it all.
Crazy they have a new planet with mysterious aliens that we never saw and know nothing about. What a waste. Did he suck the life of the rest of his crew and the remaining aliens? Were the aliens already extinct because of their own technology? How many people Krall killed without the federation knowing? Or maybe they knew and they let him in exchange of something...
Jaylah is a mystery too, we only know he killed her family, but not where she came from. Unlike Krall, loneliness and desperation didn't make her lose her mind and want revenge, she just wanted to leave that damn place so that her father hadn't died in vain. However, in a realistic story she would probably need some help too before joining starfleet because that girl had been separated from any contact with people, especially not dangerous ones, for so long.
I feel like beyond is an incomplete story though. Like we should get back to altamid at some point because that planet had a story to tell, but we only got krall story instead. They didn't even really explore it.
Yes, he was definitely crazy. Though the basis of his resentment did go back to before he was stranded. He never wanted to be a starship captain in the first place and he hated the fact that the MACOs were disbanded in order to create an alliance with other species.
He does? I never saw anything between Krall and Uhura at all. Just regular hero faces down villain stuff.
Most of his crew presumably died in the crash. Others from various causes in the intervening years. The movie, I think, is pretty clear that the planet was abandoned before the Franklin crashed there. Why the aliens were gone is not explained, of course, as is usually the case in Star Trek. Telling a story about leftover technology makes the ultimate fate of its creators largely irrelevant. Better to leave it a mystery most of the time.
And the Federation very clearly did not know Krall existed, so I don't get how they supposedly 'let' him do anything in exchange for anything. Even if you go out of your way to assume a Section 31 coverup, which is never even obliquely mentioned in the film, the story would make no sense. If Krall had the cooperation of Section 31, he could attempt and achieve a lot more than what he did.
As for Jaylah, she certainly could probably use some psychological assistance, but we don't really know enough about her to say that her issues should be incredibly huge. We don't know that she was alone during her whole exile, nor that everyone she met was hostile, nor, actually, what exactly her species' basic psychological needs are.
I mean, that sentence could literally describe almost any planet in the trek franchise. Trek generally doesn't tell stories about planets, it tells them about people (a few obvious exceptions notwithstanding).
That's even more convoluted than I thought.
And re-reading Beyond plot/motivation here . . . it seems we - who dig this stuff - are not in agreement. That's just not a good indicator.
Similar threads
