No.
Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)
- Thread starter wayoung
- Start date
Look at it this way: Let's say someone has heard of the Dune series and wants to read it. They've been told how wonderful it is, and what a great literary legacy Frank Herbert left.
So they see an in-universe chronology, that would list The Butlerian Jihad as the earliest. Great, they think, start at the beginning.
So they read it, and figure, WTF? This is just garbage. Shallow characters, cartoonish robots, where is the philosophy, and what makes this stuff good enough to be taught in university literature classes? If this is a "legacy", it's a pretty stupid one.
Based on a poor reaction to KJA/BH's slop, this hypothetical reader doesn't see the point of going on and drops the whole idea of reading Dune... and therefore never gets around to what is the gourmet feast for the mind - Frank Herbert's novels.
Interesting hypothetical, but I don't agree. Largely because it assumes the average reader is confused by first and last names and can't figure out the difference between Frank and Brian.
Respectively, I disagree. I understand it in the theoretical but I don't see it occurring, largely because there is such an active fan base who enjoy sharing the original work.
ETA: I still don't see anything being ruined either.
KJA/BH's nuDune tomes could be used in university classes along with the works of Dan Brown as examples of poorly written, schlock fiction that somehow manages to be successful. I'm sure there's scope for research there. There's no accounting for taste but perhaps there's a recipe.
On reflection, I don't think FH's novels are tainted by association but I do think some people might well pass them by if they're exposed to the low-grade stuff first of all.
I wish I could unread the nuDune novels. At least I have the satisfaction that donating my copies of the books to charity shops will diminish sales.
On reflection, I don't think FH's novels are tainted by association but I do think some people might well pass them by if they're exposed to the low-grade stuff first of all.
I wish I could unread the nuDune novels. At least I have the satisfaction that donating my copies of the books to charity shops will diminish sales.
Somehow, I get the impression that you haven't actually read the whole conversation here.
There are some people who actually think nuDune was done with Frank Herbert's approval.
It wasn't. The only Dune fiction that I know he gave his approval to is the Dune Encyclopedia. I don't know what he thought of National Lampoon's DOON (it was published two years before Herbert died), but considering that although it's a spoof, it's a pretty damn good one that's faithful to the style of Dune.
So people see "Brian Herbert" on the cover and think, "He's continuing his father's legacy, based on The Notes, and this is gonna be sooo good!".
The reality is quite different. Frank Herbert never had a say in this, and I don't recall anything in the biography Brian wrote (Dreamers of Dune) that mentioned Brian writing Dune fiction (although I'm willing to re-read the thing to verify this).
As for the fabled "notes"... the story Brian and KJA have told over the years keeps changing. It varies from notes in a safe deposit box in the bank to boxes and boxes of floppies in the attic. The only thing we know Frank left was his unfinished manuscript for "Dune 7" that he was working on at the time of his death - the sequel to Chapterhouse: Dune, which would have been the end of the series.
Since no further books are planned (to my knowledge)... why not publish these notes? Let the scholars study them, let them be used in universities, let the fans know, finally, what was in them. The Herbert family likes the $$$$$$$ the nuDune books have brought in, so this would bring them more.
Except... KJA professes bewilderment that anyone would even care about "a few notes."
Interesting. They went from boxes and boxes to just a few, hardly worth anyone's attention, now that the books have been written.
By this point (actually my BS detector went off over a decade ago), it would be reasonable to ask if there really were any notes, or at least if there were any that actually got followed.
In my view, the answer is 'no.' KJA/BH demonstrated amply that they did not understand the Butlerian Jihad as described in Dune, they hadn't paid attention at all to the Appendices in Dune, and didn't even understand the ending of Chapterhouse... the identities of Marty and Daniel.
Hunters/Sandworms wasn't so much a sequel to Chapterhouse, as a sequel to their own Butlerian Jihad and other books.
People familiar with FH's books and the Encyclopedia know that the nuDune stuff was not what would have happened. FH didn't write about killer robots or 15,000-year-old mutated Norma Cenva who drops in every few millennia to save the backsides of the chosen characters. And it's rather off-putting to have people insist that of course he did, because if he didn't, why would Brian's books have this stuff in them?
So, is the argument they shouldn't be allowed to continue because it confuses the reading audience? Is that what I am to understand?
I mean, I have read FH enough to figure that BH/KJA wouldn't be how he would have done it. So, I'm not sure how things are ruined if people can still access the originals, and dig in to find out more about authorial intent and Herbert's vision.
For the record, I'm not insisting that anything in the nuDune had Frank Herbert's blessing. So, I'm at a point where I feel like I stepped in to the wrong part of town for not daring to hate on nuDune or think that Dune is ruined.
ETA: Let me add that the only point of contention I have is that nuDune ruins, as in destroys or wrecks a product. And, I'm sorry, I don't believe that is the case. I have confidence in reading audiences to make up their own minds and don't feel the need to attack a product just because I don't like it. I don't think it is ruining anything.
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"They" who? KJA/BH?
I would have been delighted if their books had been a genuine attempt to follow and expand upon what Frank wrote. But it wasn't. They basically spat on it disrespectfully and claimed it was nothing more than in-universe propaganda, and that their own books were the real story. In other words: Don't bother reading Frank's books. His story isn't the real one. Ours is.
If people want to do that, I'm all for it. But a lot of people don't do that. They just accept the slop they're presented with and assume that the slop is what's real and never get to the good stuff, or denigrate it unread, just because the storyline of Paul of Dune says it's just in-universe propaganda.
You'll have noticed, I hope, that I have never actually told people not to read the nuDune books. I do consider them unnecessary, but if people want to read them, go ahead and read them. But I want people to know what the context is, both in terms of the Duniverse and in real-world terms of how and why these books were written, and under what circumstances.
You stepped into a conversation with some people who are not even slightly shy about voicing dislike for the nuDune books, their authors, and the circumstances surrounding the writing, publication, PR, and online discussion of the nuDune books.For the record, I'm not insisting that anything in the nuDune had Frank Herbert's blessing. So, I'm at a point where I feel like I stepped in to the wrong part of town for not daring to hate on nuDune or think that Dune is ruined.
My take on it is that you're free to like what you like. But be prepared to have your position challenged if it doesn't match what has already been established, or what can be reasonably extrapolated based on the information we already have.
Being disrespectful isn't the same as ruining. That's my argument. That's it. Period, end of story.
That's the audience's problem, not mine. I can only provide the information that I have to the readers of Dune if they ask. This paints a rather uncouth and disrespectful attitude towards readers.
There is a difference between educating and claiming something has ruined something else. One is constructive. The other destructive to conversation.
My only position, to reiterate, is that they are not ruining Dune.
I've pretty much forgotten what they were about.
That's your opinion. And I disagree with it. I guess you didn't have the lovely experience of Kevin J. Anderson openly calling you a "Talifan" on social media because you dared to criticize his "perfect prose."
I have been providing a lot of information here, particularly to people who don't have access to a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia. At least most people here aren't saying "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts."
And you're missing something: I did not say KJA/BH ruined Dune. I said they tried to ruin the part of it that was written by Frank Herbert. There's a difference.
Agree to disagree. I don't think they have ruined anything. That's my point. That's it. I have no remarks on KJA as a person or any of that.
For anyone interested in the original Dune, I recommend the excellent Audio Renaissance unabridged audiobook, read by Scott Brick, Orlagh Cassidy, Euan Morton, Simon Vance, and Ilyana Kadushin. All six of the original Dune novels are available in this format.
Link?
I've never seen her before. Is she anywhere comparable to Francesca Annis, or the actresses who played Jessica in the two miniseries?
She was praised for her portrayal of Elizabeth Woodville in The White Queen.
I'm assuming the role she's going for is Jessica, even if she seems just a little too young. Easier to age her up than age her down so it seems unlikely she's going for Chani or Irulan. One assumes they'll be looking for a more seasoned actress for Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam (fingers crossed for Sigourney Weaver!) and I can't think of any other major female characters that she could be up for.
