Enterprise-D destruction

[jaime]

While that was definitely a huge problem with the plot device called the Nexus, the larger problem was its description: a place where your greatest wishes come true, and that it's so addictive that you'll never want to leave. Well, not only was it quite easy for Picard and Kirk to leave, but Kirk's greatest wish was obviously to command his ship again because he hated retirement. And yet the Nexus gave him the fantasy of...being retired?

I think the fantasies were more like reliving decisions and regrets to change the outcome, like living in lots of alternate universes all at once. Kirk is regretting leaving Antonia to go back to Starfleet...possibly just before the launch of the B even. If he hadn’t gone to that, he wouldn’t have got blown into the nexus, and maybe the crew of the B would have found another solution without Kirk telling them to get into transporter range etc. Picard is living the fantasy of a life with a family...and just like in dreams, all the memories that match that dream just slot into his head. The nexus is like a sort of permanent dream state for your consciousness, outside of time. Which explains a lot about things like the Guinan shadow, why Soran wants to get back in it, and even some of Guinans odd abilities and time sensitivity. Maybe when they dream, the Nexodused people link up with that part of themselves still living out all the permutations or reality in the nexus.
This is stuff that makes sense about the Nexus.
Using it to move your physical body in time and space?
Not so much. Only in a locality where the Nexus has actually been (to within its range, it sweeps the mountain to get Soran and Picard after all...yet as far as we can tell, not the rest of the crew or indeed Guinan, because that would have been an interesting and longer film...all the crew choosing to leave their fantasies and go back, behind Picard and Kirk, maybe even a redeemed and now whole Soran.) seems to make sense, but that’s never explained in the film, it needs a tweak of Nexus Guinans dialogue with Picard.
I think they thought some of this through, but forgot to actually get it into the dialogue, either explicitly or implicitly (which they did mostly manage with the nature of life inside the Nexus at least. And with its name.)

 

[M.A.C.O.]

They had a great influence on modern cinema then.

Fast paced story telling (talking you blind) and or action to cover up plot holes and misplaced attempts at humor. Seriously, Braga and Moore repeatedly said GEN was about death, and yet they put in dozens of unfunny jokes and scenarios. Four letter word for this. It's called tone!

While that was definitely a huge problem with the plot device called the Nexus, the larger problem was its description: a place where your greatest wishes come true, and that it's so addictive that you'll never want to leave. Well, not only was it quite easy for Picard and Kirk to leave, but Kirk's greatest wish was obviously to command his ship again because he hated retirement. And yet the Nexus gave him the fantasy of...being retired?

Holy shit! I never thought out that before.

Hahaha
GEN is Genuine shipwreck.

 

[David cgc]

Well, not only was it quite easy for Picard and Kirk to leave, but Kirk's greatest wish was obviously to command his ship again because he hated retirement. And yet the Nexus gave him the fantasy of...being retired?

Based on the earlier movies, Kirk's like a housecat. When he's in, he wants to be out, and vice-versa. Becomes an Admiral in TMP, pulls strings to be a Captain again. Becomes an Admiral, retires, un-retires (as seen in Generations) and is miserable because he really wants to be Captain again in TWOK. Retires again in TUC, and at the beginning of Generations, guess what?

One of the things I liked about Beyond is we got to see Kirk at the beginning of one of these cycles, instead of having his leaving his captaincy always happen off-screen.

 

[Tenacity]

but it still strained credibility that it could hold its own against the Enterprise

On November 20 of 1944, the submarine Sealion (1,500 tons) sank the battleship Kongo (37,000 tons).

 

[Qonundrum]

I don't have a problem with how the BoP got through the shields, I thought it was quite a neat, plausible idea to be honest, it's just the inclusion of the vessel at all that's my problem, as it really should have been a TNG era vessel.

Interestingly, I've just been reading the Wikipedia page about the film, and apparently, the bit where the energy bolt hits the Enterprise-B, reuses an explosion effect from The Empire Strikes Back. I need to re-watch, I'm about due to having not seen the film for a couple of years.

Agreed, TNG-era ship would have been nicer than reusing ST VI's explosion effect! Cost savings aside, Klingon starships do seem to last longer in space. Older ship, weaknesses known, but the Duras Sisters and crew figuring out the Ent-D's weakness and winning was - on paper - pretty sweet. And TNG was recent enough that the Duras sisters would be remembered by even the general audiences. (I still thing ATG made a better theatrical release and it was just a TV episode...)

It makes one wonder how much more energy is required to modulate the shields, since they never do that practice by default. It's a neat idea with one small detail, but Picard and crew didn't remember the shield modulating from the good ol' Borg days to be used. Along with being caught off-guard, I suppose. It's easy for the audience to go "Hey, do this, you did that last time even though that was years and years ago!" Being in the action firsthand can be a different story. Still, Picard of all people to get caught with his pants down... It's the reverse of a Marty Stu situation. A better way to prevent the shields from going up might have been better to force the issue - the crash idea is fantastic and well-executed. Like Blake's 7's finale only with more money and a larger model.

GEN is one of those movies where, if you think about it, the entire film falls apart.

I think it was either Braga or Moore who pointed this out with regard to stopping Soran. They tried to explain that they were thinking about making the film so exciting that you wouldn't think about the holes.

An old trick by writers if they can't get around plot holes. Ideally no story would ever have plot holes but it's impossible. It's a matter of degree and choosing to make it hyper in pace to get audiences to ignore issues as opposed to trying not to make any in the first place.

I saw or read it online, a review of the movie where the person opined that they should have had Kirk getting out of the Nexus and onto the Ent-D. The movie was so full of holes it wouldn't make a difference but it would be real cool to see. IMHO, the Nexus being outside space and time they could go where they want, not just loop around time and hope they don't screw it up. Because the audience knows a loop would have them winning eventually whereas real suspense and raised stakes would be generated had they went another direction. They could have done it either way and still get Kirk on the Big-D.

I also prefer Kirk's original ending - a lot less corny or hokey, it's unexpected and tragic but relevant to Soran's villany. Would anybody in 1994 say "Oh they're killing the franchise by shooting Kirk in the back like this!" even though Soran is a villain, who didn't get enough villainous material to begin with (unless it's in a deleted scene!), and unlike most movie and TV villains he refreshingly did shoot first and not just capture them for the inevitable capture/release gig anyone could see a parsec away. So, no, they wouldn't be killing the franchise in doing so. And Kirk was still trying to save the day, not horsing around and later falling off a bridge where he gets the most unrealistic and overly long death speech... At least Picard buries him there and doesn't take his body back home to be buried in a proper cemetery or anything...

 

[Lance]

The idea of Kirk being shot in the back goes back to one of Roddenberry's own ideas: that "risk is their business" and if a character gets killed off, it should be done in a mundane way, as that underlines essentially that the regular characters all face the same potential fate as all those nameless red shirts, it's just one of the dangers of the job these people do. Say what some might about Rick Berman, he took things like that very much to heart, and tried to be true to it.

 

[Tosk]

Shot in the back while trying to save 230 million people isn't mundane.

 

[Lance]

Shot in the back while trying to save 230 million people isn't mundane.

I take your point, but television, stage and film tended to make grand dramatic overtures for when regular characters die -- such as, for example, leaping across an impossible chasm to get a remote control that will uncloak the invisible missile Kirk saying "the 24th century isn't so tough" and then being plainly shot in the back is mundane, comparatively. I'm not saying it's a bad thing; on the contrary, somebody being killed off so routinely while saving 230 million people is actually probably more dramatic than someone making a noble sacrifice or whatever. Kirk's "death" earlier in the movie was much more typical of Hollywood heroism.

 

[DonIago]

It does annoy me a bit when GEN-dislikers say Kirk died for nothing/no reason, as he did save 230 million people in the process (plus the crew of the E-D, though Kirk/Picard weren't aware of that at the time).

However, I do agree with the sentiment from the broader perspective that Picard chose a ridiculous point in time at which to return. It could reasonably be argued that Kirk's death is Picard's fault, from that angle.

 

[Lance]

The biggest plot hole IMHO about the Nexus is this notion that it's supposed to be so addictive that leaving it is hard to do, but we don't really get any real feeling that Picard actually gives a shit about his Nexus fantasy (he snaps out of it remarkably quickly), and though Kirk puts up slightly more resistance, jumping over a hole on a horse is enough to bring him back to earth. The way Soran and Guinan act like recovering addicts where the Nexus is concerned is totally at odds with Picard's and Kirk's experience.

 

[BigDaveX]

The biggest plot hole IMHO about the Nexus is this notion that it's supposed to be so addictive that leaving it is hard to do, but we don't really get any real feeling that Picard actually gives a shit about his Nexus fantasy (he snaps out of it remarkably quickly), and though Kirk puts up slightly more resistance, jumping over a hole on a horse is enough to bring him back to earth. The way Soran and Guinan act like recovering addicts where the Nexus is concerned is totally at odds with Picard's and Kirk's experience.

It makes me wonder what Generations might have turned out like had it been produced a few years later, when films with non-linear narratives were much more in vogue thanks to the likes of The Usual Suspects. They might have had something like Picard already in the Nexus at the start of the film (though he and the audience don't yet realize it), recapping his final mission in command of the Enterprise to Robert and Rene, and eventually realizing that the story he's telling doesn't add up, that he's actually in the Nexus... and in the real world, Robert and Rene are dead.

 

[DonIago]

I have a hard time imagining TPTB engaging in something so "risky", but as a premise I rather like it.

 

[Dukhat]

If I just found out that my brother and nephew died in a fire, and then only a few hours later was given a way to time travel to any point in time, I’m pretty sure the first thing I’d do is go back and prevent that from happening, crazy sun-blowing-up madman aside.

Nimoy was correct; nothing in that movie made sense.

 

[Riley]

I'm glad they did it. I've always disliked the 'D' - it looked squat, unbalanced and ungainly. It was just plain ugly.

It gave them a chance to introduce a much better design going forward...

Have they introduced it yet? The Sovereign Class was and remains garbage to this day.

The idea of Kirk being shot in the back goes back to one of Roddenberry's own ideas: that "risk is their business" and if a character gets killed off, it should be done in a mundane way, as that underlines essentially that the regular characters all face the same potential fate as all those nameless red shirts, it's just one of the dangers of the job these people do. Say what some might about Rick Berman, he took things like that very much to heart, and tried to be true to it.

That's all fine and good for a Tasha Yar, but not James T. Kirk. The man's a mythological archetype. His death should never have been shown. Ever. Riding off into the "sunset" in TUC was the perfect ending for him, as it left his future up the imagination of the audience.

If I just found out that my brother and nephew died in a fire, and then only a few hours later was given a way to time travel to any point in time, I’m pretty sure the first thing I’d do is go back and prevent that from happening, crazy sun-blowing-up madman aside.

Nimoy was correct; nothing in that movie made sense.

Nimoy should have been the guy writing the script along with Moore. It's two generations meeting, after all.

 

[Paul755]

I’m pretty sure the reason they destroyed it was because once TNG became the movie standard bearer they wanted a ship that was designed for the big screen and not one designed for TV.

In any case I never had a problem with them destroying the D. It was certainly a shocking development at the time but I think it worked out.

 

[Lance]

The 1701 was designed for TV, but transitioned to film mostly intact. Tweaked, but essentially the ship we knew and loved. No reason they couldn't have done the same with 1701-D, destroying her was just for shock value and I agree with the person above who said 1701-E was horrible. Like her or loathe her, the D was a big part of TNG's character, and the E never ever quite has the same iconic charm. Even the most recent Blu Ray release of the collected TNG movies chose to feature 1701-D on the cover art despite her only featuring in one of the four films contained in the collection. She'll always be iconic in a way 1701-E wasn't. TPTB never seemed to understand that.

 

[BigDaveX]

I'm kinda in two minds about it. On the one hand, I do like the thematic contrast between the E-D and E-E - the former is a ship designed in an era when the Federation felt secure in its ability to peacefully explore the galaxy, while the latter feels the product of the Federation now knowing there's a whole galaxy of people and things that want to murder them as horribly as possible.

It's how they go from one to the other that's the real problem for me - instead of doing it in a way that shows that the Galaxy class's design of a primarily science-focused ship crewed by families is no longer suited to an increasingly dangerous galaxy, they just have it destroyed because Riker and Worf forgot that a full weapons spread was a thing. If anything, the destruction of the USS Odyssey over on DS9 did a better job of showing that the Galaxy class might not be up to the muster anymore.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I'm kinda in two minds about it. On the one hand, I do like the thematic contrast between the E-D and E-E - the former is a ship designed in an era when the Federation felt secure in its ability to peacefully explore the galaxy, while the latter feels the product of the Federation now knowing there's a whole galaxy of people and things that want to murder them as horribly as possible.

It's how they go from one to the other that's the real problem for me - instead of doing it in a way that shows that the Galaxy class's design of a primarily science-focused ship crewed by families is no longer suited to an increasingly dangerous galaxy, they just have it destroyed because Riker and Worf forgot that a full weapons spread was a thing. If anything, the destruction of the USS Odyssey over on DS9 did a better job of showing that the Galaxy class might not be up to the muster anymore.

The Odyssey and the E-D from Yesterday's Enterprise, both had a grander send off. Than the E-D in GEN. TPTB just weren't thinking about it that way. The ship is it's own character, and they killed it and Kirk in the most lackluster ways.

The big deal for Braga and Moore was the saucer section crash. Not the battle and warp core breach that precipitated it.

Notice that on their own lead shows, DS9, VOY, ENT and BSG, they never treated the lead ship with such disgrace, when it came time for the ship to die.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Firstly, was the destruction of the Enterprise-D really necessary?

No, not really.

What did it add to the story?

Not much of anything. The miniatures were horribly obvious in the crash scene.

From what I've read, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga just wanted to destroy the ship because they thought it'd be "cool".

Yup. And they wanted to give them a new ship in the sequel. I was never really taken with the E, BTW. Even though it was seen in three movies, I never got a feel for it the way I did the refit Enterprise and the Enterprise-A.

but when the Stellar Cartography and HMS Enterprise sets ate up most of the film’s budget, the decision was made to use the BoP and the TUC footage of it blowing up to save money.

Man, GEN really spent their money in all the wrong places.

GEN is one of those movies where, if you think about it, the entire film falls apart.

Yep. It really hurts the film that the Nexus just does whatever they want it do in that point in time. Guinan left an "echo" in the Nexus just so that she can give Picard an exposition dump, but she can't help him beyond that. Soran and Kirk and the other El Alurians apparently didn't leave echoes there, though. Who knows why? Picard gets a fantasy of a completely made-up Dickensian Christmas, complete with a wife and his dead nephew as his son, but Kirk gets a flashback to a temporary retirement that was an actual time in his life, apparently. You're so happy in the Nexus that you never ever want to leave, except for Picard and Kirk, who are so awesome and heroic that they both leave it easily just because they want to so badly.

While that was definitely a huge problem with the plot device called the Nexus, the larger problem was its description: a place where your greatest wishes come true, and that it's so addictive that you'll never want to leave. Well, not only was it quite easy for Picard and Kirk to leave, but Kirk's greatest wish was obviously to command his ship again because he hated retirement. And yet the Nexus gave him the fantasy of...being retired?

Horseback riding, his dead doberman back alive, and a fantasy woman to live with him in a rustic cabin? As Sci-Fi Universe put it in their review at the time, that was William Shatner's fantasy, not Kirk's.

Can you imagine if they'd gotten Bibi Besch to do a cameo as Carol Marcus in that scene? Or Joan Collins as Edith Keeler, living in domestic bliss with James T. Kirk in 1957? (27 years after the 1930 setting of COTEOF, to keep the time gap intact.) It would've been heart wrenching to see Kirk give up a chance to be with them, because it would've been characters the audience had a familiarity with and affection for, instead of some nonentity we'd never heard of before and never see in the finished film. So Kirk's leaving "Antonia," huh? Who cares?

Based on the earlier movies, Kirk's like a housecat. When he's in, he wants to be out, and vice-versa. Becomes an Admiral in TMP, pulls strings to be a Captain again. Becomes an Admiral, retires, un-retires (as seen in Generations) and is miserable because he really wants to be Captain again in TWOK. Retires again in TUC, and at the beginning of Generations, guess what?

Interesting theory!

That's all fine and good for a Tasha Yar, but not James T. Kirk. The man's a mythological archetype. His death should never have been shown. Ever. Riding off into the "sunset" in TUC was the perfect ending for him, as it left his future up the imagination of the audience.

Agreed.

Nimoy should have been the guy writing the script along with Moore. It's two generations meeting, after all.

Yeah. Nimoy wanted to revamp the story from stem to stern, or be in on the plotting process from the very beginning, the way he was with III, IV, and VI. Berman said that they didn't have time for that extensive of a rewrite, and Nimoy said, "Well, I wish you'd contacted me sooner, then." I like that. It really shows Nimoy's integrity.

 

[TommyR01D]

The method of the ship's destruction hews a little too close to "Yesterday's Enterprise" for my tastes.

They even had a key scene repeated:

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(Come to think of it, there are other similarities - lower lighting, changed uniforms, additional bridge stations, captain's chair raised...)