The Path Of Khan...
- Thread starter Discofan
- Start date
That's not how Khan works. He could simply shoot Kirk and be done with it but instead he gloats and boast his superiority. He needs not only to beat Kirk but at the same time that he's so much superior to Kirk that he can even discuss terms and still end up killing Kirk. That's not coherent with someone anticipating that something could go wrong.
As I said earlier it's a contradiction in terms.
No there isn't. If Khan even thought for a second that there was even a slight possibility that Kirk could best him and therefore compound his humiliation in the process, he would have rather killed him right away.
I mean just think of it for one second:
"I think there is a possibility that my enemy could best me and escape me in spite of my firm intent to kill him but instead of killing him right away, I'll delay it and give him the chance to escape me."
That makes no sense!!!
It does if there's more at play than just Kirk. Something like a terrifying weapon that can destroy all life on a planet.
We'll simply have to agree to disagree.
And that's the only thing we'll agree on in this thread, I am afraid.
Because the film was written in a weekend.
Is that a fact?
Here's a possible scenario.
Khan left Chekov and Terrell in that box on Regula I, since they had served their usefulness, and knowing that they would die by Ceti Eel fairly soon.
Chekov and Terrell were still under the influence of the little beasties and were therefore compelled to keep pleasing their new superhuman overlord even if he had left them to rot. They knew of Khan's desire to get Genesis, so when they went to look for the device, they just had to open a channel to 'His Excellency' so he would know.
Then once Khan had Genesis under his control, Khan commanded Chekov and Terrell to kill Kirk, seeing as how he just happened to be there.
Kor
Khan left Chekov and Terrell in that box on Regula I, since they had served their usefulness, and knowing that they would die by Ceti Eel fairly soon.
Chekov and Terrell were still under the influence of the little beasties and were therefore compelled to keep pleasing their new superhuman overlord even if he had left them to rot. They knew of Khan's desire to get Genesis, so when they went to look for the device, they just had to open a channel to 'His Excellency' so he would know.
Then once Khan had Genesis under his control, Khan commanded Chekov and Terrell to kill Kirk, seeing as how he just happened to be there.
Kor
More or less.
The story goes (at least insofar as I understand it) that Bennett wasn't happy with any of Sowards's scripts (there were a couple) and they were running out of time before they needed to start shooting. So he tasked Meyer to do a whole rewrite. Meyer then hammered-pages in a hodgepodge of the Sowards scripts, Bennett's notes, and his own ideas in what was essentially a single weekend.
The result was more or less the shooting script.
I agree even if ID sort of ripped off TWOK, though it was more of an homage than a rip off per. se.
The exact sequence of events is a source of endless and delightful debate. We can probably agree that anything shown to us is shown in chronological order, not out of order. But beyond that...
How long between Kirk deciding to respond to Marcus' call and alter course for Regula One, and Kirk encountering Khan? There are few real cues.
1) Marcus gets Chekov's call, and Kirk immediately gets Marcus' call, some time before Khan has even reached Regula One. We must give Khan some time to complete his voyage, the torture, the search for Genesis, and supposedly the boxing of Chekov and Terrell. Chekov claims the Reliant will take three days to arrive, but he may be lying for Khan - a quicker arrival would allow Khan to surprise the scientists, who would nevertheless have done their best at preparing Genesis for delivery.
2) Kirk no doubt acts immediately upon the call; there is no reason for a delay. He sets out towards Regula One at warp five.
3) We next meet Khan who is on a "course" of some sort but "alters" this to intercept the Enterprise. Sounds indecisive - was he initially on his way to the sort of free-roaming that Joachim advocates, but then flipped back to the mad-revenge-at-Kirk mode when the sensors showed the Enterprise within intercept range?
4) After this scene, Kirk introduces Genesis to Spock and McCoy. It would be a bit odd for him to wait for several days to do so...
5) The hero and the villain then meet, still 12 hours from Regula One. Possibly at warp five, but we see the ships rendezvous at sublight anyway, and the Reliant is the party credited with slowing down. Perhaps a standard sublight final approach to a system riddled with traffic hazards (to wit, Mutara)?
The timeline can be construed in several ways, these being the extremes:
A) Khan doesn't lie, and the time from his message to Marcus to his encounter with Kirk is three days plus the rummaging through Regula One plus the flight time to Kirk (which may be less than Kirk's conservative 12 hours).
B) Khan lies, jumps the scientists, and meets Kirk just a couple of hours after messaging Marcus.
The problem with A is that Kirk would have little excuse to delay discussing Genesis with McCoy and Spock beyond a couple of hours. Yet the discussion takes place after Khan has visited Regula One.
The problem with B is that the slow final run of 12 hours would form a lion's share of Kirk's trip to Regula One. Why hit warp five for five minutes if you plan on doing impulse for half a day? OTOH, if Khan is within pouncing distance of the lab initially, it seems to follow Kirk would be, too, which is an incredible coincidence.
So what we need is a compromise, something in between. And preferably with Khan not taking full three days before reaching the Genesis lab (which is easily covered by assuming him lying, the tactically smart thing to do), and only realizing Kirk is within range when the sensors show him to be (meaning Khan's own jamming prevented him from realizing Kirk was indeed responding).
Timo Saloniemi
How long between Kirk deciding to respond to Marcus' call and alter course for Regula One, and Kirk encountering Khan? There are few real cues.
1) Marcus gets Chekov's call, and Kirk immediately gets Marcus' call, some time before Khan has even reached Regula One. We must give Khan some time to complete his voyage, the torture, the search for Genesis, and supposedly the boxing of Chekov and Terrell. Chekov claims the Reliant will take three days to arrive, but he may be lying for Khan - a quicker arrival would allow Khan to surprise the scientists, who would nevertheless have done their best at preparing Genesis for delivery.
2) Kirk no doubt acts immediately upon the call; there is no reason for a delay. He sets out towards Regula One at warp five.
3) We next meet Khan who is on a "course" of some sort but "alters" this to intercept the Enterprise. Sounds indecisive - was he initially on his way to the sort of free-roaming that Joachim advocates, but then flipped back to the mad-revenge-at-Kirk mode when the sensors showed the Enterprise within intercept range?
4) After this scene, Kirk introduces Genesis to Spock and McCoy. It would be a bit odd for him to wait for several days to do so...
5) The hero and the villain then meet, still 12 hours from Regula One. Possibly at warp five, but we see the ships rendezvous at sublight anyway, and the Reliant is the party credited with slowing down. Perhaps a standard sublight final approach to a system riddled with traffic hazards (to wit, Mutara)?
The timeline can be construed in several ways, these being the extremes:
A) Khan doesn't lie, and the time from his message to Marcus to his encounter with Kirk is three days plus the rummaging through Regula One plus the flight time to Kirk (which may be less than Kirk's conservative 12 hours).
B) Khan lies, jumps the scientists, and meets Kirk just a couple of hours after messaging Marcus.
The problem with A is that Kirk would have little excuse to delay discussing Genesis with McCoy and Spock beyond a couple of hours. Yet the discussion takes place after Khan has visited Regula One.
The problem with B is that the slow final run of 12 hours would form a lion's share of Kirk's trip to Regula One. Why hit warp five for five minutes if you plan on doing impulse for half a day? OTOH, if Khan is within pouncing distance of the lab initially, it seems to follow Kirk would be, too, which is an incredible coincidence.
So what we need is a compromise, something in between. And preferably with Khan not taking full three days before reaching the Genesis lab (which is easily covered by assuming him lying, the tactically smart thing to do), and only realizing Kirk is within range when the sensors show him to be (meaning Khan's own jamming prevented him from realizing Kirk was indeed responding).
Timo Saloniemi
Khan gave Terrell instructions to play along with whoever found him and try to find the Genesis device. Khan went to Reugula 1 looking for Genesis. He didn't find it. But he knew someone would come along to check on the lab, possibly someone who knew where or would find out where the Genesis device was hidden. The plan worked and allowed Khan to steal Genesis.
This makes more sense than anything I've read so far.
Khan had no way of knowing that he'd be able to deal the Enterprise a death-blow by surprise. His reasonable expectation of the encounter between Reliant and Enterprise would be combat between two roughly equal ships.
In that event, his plan was to engage briefly and then appear to be driven off, which would lead Enterprise to go to Regula and find the Genesis scientists that he hadn't had time to properly search for. And he'd left behind some sleeper agents for that.
But instead he got lucky and crippled Enterprise with his first shot, so he went to Plan B: extort the information from Kirk.
And really, do you think Khan would be satisfied with just having Kirk killed? Is there any chance that Tyrell and Checkov weren't specifically ordered to not kill Kirk, but to hold him at gunpoint and to shoot others if he resists? Does that sound like Khan?
In that event, his plan was to engage briefly and then appear to be driven off, which would lead Enterprise to go to Regula and find the Genesis scientists that he hadn't had time to properly search for. And he'd left behind some sleeper agents for that.
But instead he got lucky and crippled Enterprise with his first shot, so he went to Plan B: extort the information from Kirk.
And really, do you think Khan would be satisfied with just having Kirk killed? Is there any chance that Tyrell and Checkov weren't specifically ordered to not kill Kirk, but to hold him at gunpoint and to shoot others if he resists? Does that sound like Khan?
I don't know. You can see on Khan's face that he's dumbfounded that the shields went down and even refuse to admit that he should retire, if not for his underling he could have stayed and his ship would have been damaged beyond repairs and all his crew killed (which is eventually what happened btw). That doesn't seem to me like someone who's planning far ahead, but more like someone impulsive, foolhardy and terminally overconfident. Kirk defeated him for these reasons. Note how Khan's underling is the voice of reason but he never listens to it. He even curses him when the underling is reluctant to follow (suicidal) orders.
