The Path Of Khan...

[Discofan]

Why did Khan leave Chekov and Terrell in that big box with wrist emitters and instructions to follow Kirk to the Genesis device and then kill him?

Did Khan say to himself: "I expect that somehow Kirk will outsmart me and manage to outlive our encounter and then he'll get to that place and find the Genesis device which I couldn't find, IOW, outsmart me a second time."

Do you really think that Khan would reason this way? If not then how do you explain these events?

 

[BillJ]

He simply gave Chekov and Terrell instructions to kill Kirk. They fortunately survived long enough to make it to the Genesis cave.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yes, I do think Khan would reason that way. The only thing he didn't anticpate was that Terrell could resist long enough to commit suicide (and thus the death of Terrell's eel would cause the one inside Chekov to leave his body).

 

[Discofan]

He simply gave Chekov and Terrell instructions to kill Kirk. They fortunately survived long enough to make it to the Genesis cave.

Two things:

1) Why didn't Terrell try to shoot Kirk right off the bat instead of waiting for who knows what?

2) Why was Khan expecting Kirk to still be alive at this point since his intention was to blow him to bits? Did he think that Kirk's would think of something that had eluded his superior mind? Doesn't seem likely, does it?

 

[BillJ]

1) Why didn't Terrell try to shoot Kirk right off the bat instead of waiting for who knows what?

He was resisting until the Ceti Eel had completely taken over.

2) Why was Khan expecting Kirk to still be alive at this point since his intention was to blow him to bits? Did he think that Kirk's would think of something that had eluded his superior mind? Doesn't seem likely, does it?

When the Reliant evacuates the Enterprise was still in one piece. So, Khan was expecting Kirk to come after him. He knew Kirk wouldn't give up after being sucker-punched.

 

[Discofan]

Yes, I do think Khan would reason that way. I don't see the problem with it - Terrell and Chekov were obvious plants, left there to get close enough to Kirk to take what they needed re: Genesis and then kill Kirk and crew. The only thing Khan didn't anticpate was that Terrell could resist long enough to commit suicide (and thus the death of Terrell's eel would cause the one inside Chekov to leave his body).

I am sorry but it doesn't seem likely that Khan would expect Kirk to outsmart him, if he did then his relaxed attitude makes no sense.

Either Khan thinks that he's superior to Kirk and he then can't expect him to still be alive after their first meeting or Khan has a complex of inferiority Vis a vis Kirk, but that makes even less sense because in that case he would have just shot him right away and be done with it.

 

[Discofan]

He was resisting until the Ceti Eel had completely taken over.



When the Reliant evacuates the Enterprise was still in one piece. So, Khan was expecting Kirk to come after him. He knew Kirk wouldn't give up after being sucker-punched.

I am sorry but that doesn't work as Khan looked pretty sure that Kirk would be dead after their encounter, so much so that he was even willing to discuss terms. If Khan thought that there was a possibility that Kirk could prevail he would have just blown him to bits right away.

It either one or the other, it can't be both.

 

[BillJ]

I am sorry but that doesn't work as Khan looked pretty sure that Kirk would be dead after their encounter, so much so that he was even willing to discuss terms. If Khan thought that there was a possibility that Kirk could prevail he would have just blown him to bits right away.

It either one or the other, it can't be both.

I think you need to go back and rewatch the movie. Kirk is stalling for time.

 

[Discofan]

I think you need to go back and rewatch the movie. Kirk is stalling for time.

I think you're the one who needs to watch the movie. Khan is pretty sure that Kirk is dead in the water. Just see him gloating and he's flabbergasted when the the shields went down and his ship was shot. If he had anticipated any of this he would not have discussed terms with Kirk, he would have just blown his ship to pieces right away, which he could easily have done. Kirk only got him because of Khan's overconfidence. Therefore it doesn't make sense that Khan would have expected Kirk to STILL be alive after their meeting. He would not have planted Chekhov and Terrell to kill a dead man!

It simply doesn't add up.

 

[BillJ]

You're simply wrong, @Discofan.

Kirk begs Khan to spare his crew. Khan agrees, if Kirk gives him any material pertaining to Genesis. Kirk uses that time to punch up the Reliant prefix code. Enterprise attacks Reliant, and Reliant has to scurry away.

KHAN: Fire! Fire!
JOACHIM: We can't fire, sir!
KHAN: Why can't you?
JOACHIM: They've damaged the photon-control and the warp drive. We must withdraw.
KHAN: No! No!
JOACHIM: Sir, we must! ...The Enterprise can wait. She's not going anywhere.

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie2.html

Khan overestimated his hand. He knew when they left that Kirk wasn't dead. He knew Regula One was the center of the Genesis experiments, so he leaves Terrell and Chekov there in case Kirk shows up.

 

[BillJ]

Start at about 5:12...

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[Discofan]

You're simply wrong, @Discofan.

Kirk begs Khan to spare his crew. Khan agrees, if Kirk gives him any material pertaining to Genesis. Kirk uses that time to punch up the Reliant prefix code. Enterprise attacks Reliant, and Reliant has to scurry away.



http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie2.html

Khan overestimated his hand. He knew when they left that Kirk wasn't dead. He knew Regula One was the center of the Genesis experiments, so he leaves Terrell and Chekov there in case Kirk shows up.

You don't understand.

Khan left CheKov and Terrell in the box BEFORE his encounter, BEFORE!!! Not AFTER!!!

He had no way of knowing that Kirk would somehow manage to outsmart him and survive his confrontation with him since Khan's clear intend was to KILL kirk and NOT let him LIVE!!

Kirk was supposed to be dead at that point and it therefore makes no sense that Khan would plant Chekhov and Terrell to kill a dead man!

Again, Khan left Chekhov and Terrell in that box BEFORE his first encounter with Kirk, at a time when he was certain that he would kill him.

Remember the look of surprise o,n Khan's face when the shields went down!

 

[BillJ]

Khan left CheKov and Terrell in the box BEFORE his encounter, BEFORE!!! Not AFTER!!!

It still makes sense that Khan would have a backup plan.

 

[Discofan]

It still makes sense that Khan would have a backup plan.

Not in that case. Khan was so certain that Kirk would be dead that he even discussed terms. Something he wouldn't have done if he thought that there was a possibility that he would need a back-up plan.

It either one or the other. Either Khan is overconfident or he's not.

He can't be both reasonable and overconfident.

Besides it's pretty obvious that Kirk's escape plans let him dismayed each time and that's why he gets angry and respond to Kirk's taunts, like someone who doesn't expect to be bested.

What you're saying is that Khan was anticipating his possible defeat, while losing because of overconfidence.

Don't you see that there is a contradiction there?

 

[BillJ]

Don't you see that there is a contradiction there?

No. Because one-on-one, the Reliant is likely no match for the Enterprise. So, someone who is intelligent would likely hedge their bets. You have to remember, Khan didn't just want Kirk dead, he wanted the Genesis device.

 

[Kor]

Even if you are 100% certain of success at something, it still makes sense to have a backup plan. To quote Disraeli , "I am prepared for the worst, but hope for the best."

Kor

 

[Discofan]

No. Because one-on-one, the Reliant is likely no match for the Enterprise. So, someone who is intelligent would likely hedge their bets. You have to remember, Khan didn't just want Kirk dead, he wanted the Genesis device.

He wanted Kirk dead. He told him so. He told him that he was about to die and the only terms he agreed to included Kirk dying alone instead of his whole crew. No matter how badly Khan wanted the Genesis device, his first priority was to kill Kirk. It's pretty clear that he was completely taken aback by Kirk's survival, EACH TIME!

It makes no sense to plan the killing of someone that you expect to be dead already. Which is basically what the movie is implying. It's just a contradiction in terms.

 

[BillJ]

It makes no sense to plan the killing of someone that you expect to be dead already. Which is basically what the movie is implying. It's just a contradiction in terms

I don't see how having a backup plan is a contradiction? YMMV.

 

[Discofan]

Even if you are 100% certain of success at something, it still makes sense to have a backup plan. To quote Disraeli , "I am prepared for the worst, but hope for the best."

Kor

Khan shows a lack of anticipation that is constantly reminded to us by his underling. He wants to keep fighting when it's obvious that he's losing the battle and it takes the actions of his underling to snap him out of it. How can you think that someone like that is anticipating defeat and saying to himself that Kirk will survive against all odds and get to the place where Chekhov and Terrell are stored in a box. To me that doesn't make sense. Khan is taken by surprise by each and every one of Kirk's moves but at the same he's anticipating that such moves will happen.

That doesn't add up. It's not coherent. Each time Kirk gets Khan precisely because Khan is in capable of anticipating the consequences even if his underling can. Khan doesn't even listen to the warnings of his underling and is taken abck by the fact that the shields don't work for example. So how would he prepare for something that in his mind is impossible!

 

[Discofan]

I don't see how having a backup plan is a contradiction? YMMV.

The contradiction is in Khan's overconfidence. Khan obviously doesn't anticipate any tricks from Kirk otherwise he wouldn't give him any leeway. If Khan would have simply shot Kirk right away nothing would have happened. It's khan's foolhardy overconfidence that allows Kirk to prevail, it's not Khan's anticipation that something could go wrong.

That's where the contradiction resides.