“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[eschaton]

I honestly find it odd to obsess over "why" the Klingons look differently. They just changed the design because they wanted to. It's not some complicated story because Klingons aren't real beings who are supposed to look a certain way. They're part of a show and the show wanted them to look differently. This isn't a historical drama, it's a scifi show. Just relax and accept it.

Can't we just talk about what the Klingons are doing?

Personally, I find canon/continuity arguments boring and pointless. There's nothing I hate more in terms of behavior on this forum than when I try to get in a discussion about whether element X worked, and people just parrot back what is seen on screen as an explanation. We can come up with any number of in-canon explanations for things, even though lots of Trek canon makes no sense (like all of the humanoid races interbreeding, for example).

What people really seem like they should be debating regarding this stuff is whether the elements make logical sense, not canon sense. In this particular case, whether the changes are so jarring that they break people's suspension of disbelief, and thus cause them to enjoy the story less.

FWIW, what the Klingons did in Season 1 made way, way less sense to me than what they looked like. I'd actually prefer their appearance isn't reconned yet again, except maybe to free up the face a bit more to be expressive (and fix the dental prosthetics so the lines don't all have to be overdubbed after the fact).

 

[eschaton]

I think there wouldn't be as much complaining about the klingon re-design if what the klingons did on the show was actually any kind of interesting.

Instead, it was one of the most clichèd presentations of klingons in the entire franchise: Doofuses using the word "honour" every second sentence, hell-bent on doing the most obvious, aggressive "warriour" stuff whenever possible, wether it made sense or not. Nothing nuanced, no variety in portrayal, no internal arguments. It was the most shallow look at klingons imaginable.

The re-design really is the only thing the show added to the klingons. And it was fucking horrible. That's why that so quickly turns into the main point in so many arguments.

I basically "gave up" on the Klingons in the penultimate episode, where we discover that somehow the Great Houses can bring the Federation to the brink of defeat without having any coherent strategy or tactics, with each House basically running its own private little war - raiding and pillaging whatever they damn well pleased. Not to mention that the show didn't even bother to introduce a new Klingon antagonist (or character at all) for the final two episodes, which were purportedly about defeating (or at least defusing) the Klingon advance.

 

[Mudd]

Yep.

The plotting on this show - action, consequence, logic - is often no more persuasive than "because we said so."

 

[DaveyNY]

I basically "gave up" on the Klingons in the penultimate episode, where we discover that somehow the Great Houses can bring the Federation to the brink of defeat without having any coherent strategy or tactics, with each House basically running its own private little war - raiding and pillaging whatever they damn well pleased. Not to mention that the show didn't even bother to introduce a new Klingon antagonist (or character at all) for the final two episodes, which were purportedly about defeating (or at least defusing) the Klingon advance.

I'm just assuming that even though we didn't really see it on screen...,
At this point in time, the Klingons have a massive chit-load of starships and were just overwhelming the Federation with sheer numbers, even though Star Fleet had the superior ships.

 

[jaime]

I understand the perspective of working on products licensed by CBS. They are bound to toe the company line. I'm more intrigued by the decision making to make this "Prime" to begin with (I have a feeling it has to do with the backlash against the Abrams films by a small but loud crowd) and why fans are so set that it has to be "Prime"? For some, it seems like they are offended by anyone that questions the decrees of CBS.

I wanted a Prime series. I still do. It’s not entirely beyond belief that with a nip and a tuck, DSC can settle its biggest wrinkles, and be what it’s sold as. It’s got time. I don’t mind little things, like many others...it’s the biggest things that are the most annoying, and at least three of those are visuals. It’s doable. If, by the end, the biggest things aren’t addressed at least a tiny bit here and there (‘damn these experimental pylons, when we get back to Star base I am either getting the new ones back in, or getting those newer engines they are working on....’ ‘new Starfleet directive...no more bridge windows. At least ensign sukdthruwindo didn’t die in vain.’ ‘Damn, thank goodness you accepted our help...that virus was making your empire look like the damned planet of the Disco pineapples. I must say chancellor l’rell You look much better with the hair...reminds me of something from the twentieth century...l’rell Because I’m worth it...’) then it’s gonna be harder to reconcile.

 

[Tuskin38]

I basically "gave up" on the Klingons in the penultimate episode, where we discover that somehow the Great Houses can bring the Federation to the brink of defeat without having any coherent strategy or tactics

The cloaking device gave them an extreme advantage.

 

[BillJ]

It’s not entirely beyond belief that with a nip and a tuck, DSC can settle its biggest wrinkles, and be what it’s sold as. It’s got time. I don’t mind little things, like many others...it’s the biggest things that are the most annoying, and at least three of those are visuals. It’s doable. If, by the end, the biggest things aren’t addressed at least a tiny bit here and there (‘damn these experimental pylons, when we get back to Star base I am either getting the new ones back in, or getting those newer engines they are working on....’ ‘new Starfleet directive...no more bridge windows. At least ensign sukdthruwindo didn’t die in vain.’ ‘Damn, thank goodness you accepted our help...that virus was making your empire look like the damned planet of the Disco pineapples. I must say chancellor l’rell You look much better with the hair...reminds me of something from the twentieth century...l’rell Because I’m worth it...’) then it’s gonna be harder to reconcile.

From my perspective, I'd rather that stuff not even enter the minds of the writers. I'd rather just have the best sci-fi stories possible.

 

[Noname Given]

I understand the perspective of working on products licensed by CBS. They are bound to toe the company line. I'm more intrigued by the decision making to make this "Prime" to begin with (I have a feeling it has to do with the backlash against the Abrams films by a small but loud crowd) and why fans are so set that it has to be "Prime"? For some, it seems like they are offended by anyone that questions the decrees of CBS.

I think it's more that CBS wants TV based Star Trek to be part of past TV based Star Trek; and want's to keep the current JJ Verse it's own separate entity. I don't think they're concerned with 'Internet backlash' - all they're concerned with is teh bottom line and for them:

- ST:2009 amd especially ST: Into Darkness were successes at the Box Office. ST: Beyond unperformed - even while getting good reviews from Star Trek fans in general who didn't care for the previous two JJ-Trek installments, take that as you will.

- ST: D IS a SUCCESS at what it was produced to do...IE bring more paying subscribers to CBSAA. In fact jhad it bombed for CBSAA, I seriously doubt you would see them trying to expand their Star trek offerings and do the Picard based show and other Star Trek based shows they are in pre-production for now. The reason for the multiple shows is to have 'new' Star Trek content year round on the platform to bring in and retain subscriptions.

 

[BillJ]

- ST: D IS a SUCCESS at what it was produced to do...IE bring more paying subscribers to CBSAA. In fact jhad it bombed for CBSAA, I seriously doubt you would see them trying to expand their Star trek offerings and do the Picard based show and other Star Trek based shows they are in pre-production for now. The reason for the multiple shows is to have 'new' Star Trek content year round on the platform to bring in and retain subscriptions.

I've never said otherwise...

 

[jaime]

From my perspective, I'd rather that stuff not even enter the minds of the writers. I'd rather just have the best sci-fi stories possible.

I’ll go for good Trek.
Best SF is an even wider field that Trek can’t hope to encompass any more. That’s why we have other shows entirely. Trek is agente unto itself in some respects by now.
Ironically, most of the other shows I enjoy have Trek in their DNA.

 

[eschaton]

The plotting on this show - action, consequence, logic - is often no more persuasive than "because we said so."

And even this would have been forgivable to me if the plot was really secondary to well-rounded character development. But instead the characters were largely subservient to the plot, and the plot made absolutely no sense.

I'm just assuming that even though we didn't really see it on screen...,
At this point in time, the Klingons have a massive chit-load of starships and were just overwhelming the Federation with sheer numbers, even though Star Fleet had the superior ships.

Yeah, I guess if the Klingons have and order of magnitude more ships - to the point that any single House can defeat any Federation fleet singlehanded - then it is plausible. But in that cause, the Federation should have been crushed much earlier. Indeed, what we see onscreen seems to imply that the disunity of the Klingons was an advantage, because the Federation couldn't predict where they'd hit next. This is nuts, and shows that no one in the writer's room had even a passing understanding of military history. A divided force never defeats a united one - especially when you take into account logistics.

The cloaking device gave them an extreme advantage.

Nope, still not buying it. Cloaking would help, but it wouldn't let you occupy a large portion of Federation space. Particularly with each House acting alone.

 

[Dar70]

Yeah but a lot of these are contemporaneous cranial ridges meant to show considerable genetic diversity among Klingons, which is a separate issue from them tweaking the makeup over the years.

The biggest (Klingon makeup) jump of the pre-Kelvin Paramount era, is from Motion Picture to Search for Spock. Kruge doesn't look too different from the early TNG Klingons, which were gradually refined; and then expanding the concept of greater cranial variation among Klingons (a concept which began on Search for Spock).

But the look of the Discovery Klingons is a much more drastic departure than any of the changes from 1979 to 2005, which becomes especially obvious when one sees them in profile:

Exactly. The oblong head is a huge departure. The look basically stayed the same from TMP through the Kelvin movies. Than Discovery gives us this...lol.

 

[Tuskin38]

Not all the Klingons in DSC had the long heads.

T'Kuvma's head wasn't that big.

Voq's wasn't like L'Rell's either

 

[fireproof78]

What people really seem like they should be debating regarding this stuff is whether the elements make logical sense, not canon sense. In this particular case, whether the changes are so jarring that they break people's suspension of disbelief, and thus cause them to enjoy the story less.

I guess this is a point of difference for me. If it can make "Star Trek canon sense" then I can work with the logic problems.

 

[jaime]

Not all the Klingons in DSC had the long heads.

T'Kuvma's head wasn't that big.

Voq's wasn't like L'Rell's either

Put it this way, if someone took a commission to do an illustration for a Trek book in say..2007...not that far back....and stuck these Klingons and their new bird of prey on the front, with the DSC enterprise swooping by, they would be sacked. Or, if the illustration got through, on the cover of a book, it would laughed at by us.

Stick it in the multimillion dollar, desperately longed for, return of Trek to TV, and it’s a bold artistic choice by great creative minds....

Me? I suspect it’s a flamingo up.

Touch wood something like normal service will be slowly returned. A show like Trek trades in no small part on the franchises history, legacy, and yes, continuity.
As a committed federation STO player I am familiar with many ‘racial’ anti Klingon slurs. The last thing needed is a whole new paradigm.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Not all the Klingons in DSC had the long heads.

T'Kuvma's head wasn't that big.

Voq's wasn't like L'Rell's either

Sexual dimorphism is a common trait in nature. It's possible that only female Klingons have the longer skulls.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Sexual dimorphism is a common trait in nature. It's possible that only female Klingons have the longer skulls.

Or the skulls aren't biological at all, but a body altering fashion which was primarily applied to (important?) females of this particular era.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Totally agree with this. Incidentally I was accused of preferring a cis white male over a female poc as a lead in a Star Trek show earlier in this thread because I made the innocuous suggestion that Picard was a more popular character than Michael. The leap in logic from what I said to what that person inferred was enormous. That poster didn’t want to debate me, discuss why I thought Picard was more popular than Michael, or challenge my ideas in any way - other than to imply that I was a sexist racist. Even the defence of my post (which came from some other posters as well I was happy to see) was met with silence from the original poster and I think the moderators too.

Did you hit notify on the post in question at the time so the mods could take a look at it? (Checks) No, you did not. We don't see everything. There are a lot of threads to cover. If you aren't proactive and report what you consider to be a breach of the rules (though it is not a guarantee that it is) then don't complain about the alleged lack of a mod response.

Also, everyone knock off the self-pity routine and roundabout MA complaints and get back to talking about the thread topic.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Did you hit notify on the post in question at the time so the mods could take a look at it? (Checks) No, you did not. We don't see everything. There are a lot of threads to cover. If you aren't proactive and report what you consider to be a breach of the rules (though it is not a guarantee that it is) then don't complain about the alleged lack of a mod response.

Also, everyone knock off the self-pity routine and roundabout MA complaints and get back to talking about the thread topic.

Thanks very much for this and forgive my naivety - I forget how large this forum is. Although there were posts from a moderator a few posts after mine (that weren’t related to the issue I metioned) I guess I unfairly assumed a responsibility to intervene that was uninformed on my part. As you point out, I didn’t flag up the post. I’ll endeavour to be more proactive in future - thanks again for pointing this out to me

 

[Discofan]

It could be fun if Picard in the new show made a reference to Michael as a historical figure.