Yet Another Prime Directive / Non-Interference Question

[Sibyl]

Something I don't get about how the Prime Directive was treated in portions of the series (from TNG onward): Why does non-interference apply to advanced societies? The one specific instance I'm thinking of is not involving the Federation or Starfleet in the Klingon Civil War.

Here, you have one faction that has already demonstrated their desire to collaborate with the Romulans, and here you have a faction that has the legal right to lead asking for the Federation's assistance while warning the Federation that the faction that lost their legal claim to the Council will surely work with the Romulans to overthrow the Federation and without the Federation's help it seems likely that it will be the case. I mean...it seems like kind of a no-brainer.

This is not a case of preventing a primitive race from developing naturally, and it is not a case of providing knowledge or technology to a race that has not shown its ability to deal with it. This is the protection of the Federation, itself.

Why would that even be a thing???

 

[BillJ]

You don't want to be on the hook for cleaning up a mess if things go wrong.

 

[Sibyl]

I do understand that, but when the odds of not helping seem so ominously against your favor, I don't understand.

I know we have some recent examples of such a concept, but we also have WWII. The US was attacked by Japan. We decided to help our European allies in "The European Conflict". The US did help with the cleanup aftward, and it's been rather splendid for many decades afterward.

"Although the war began with Nazi Germany's attack on Poland in September 1939, the United States did not enter the war until after the Japanese bombed the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941. Between those two events, President Franklin Roosevelt worked hard to prepare Americans for a conflict that he regarded as inevitable. In November 1939, he persuaded Congress to repeal the arms embargo provisions of the neutrality law so that arms could be sold to France and Britain. After the fall of France in the spring of June 1940, he pushed for a major military buildup and began providing aid in the form of Lend-Lease to Britain, which now stood alone against the Axis powers. America, he declared, must become "the great arsenal of democracy." From then on, America's capacity to produce hundreds of thousands of tanks, airplanes, and ships for itself and its allies proved a crucial factor in Allied success, as did the fierce resistance of the Soviet Union, which had joined the war in June 1941 after being attacked by Germany."

Not all conflicts end up in situations like Syria and Afghanistan.

 

[BillJ]

The US was attacked by Japan. We decided to help our European allies in "The European Conflict". The US did help with the cleanup aftward, and it's been rather splendid for many decades afterward.

"Although the war began with Nazi Germany's attack on Poland in September 1939, the United States did not enter the war until after the Japanese bombed the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941. Between those two events, President Franklin Roosevelt worked hard to prepare Americans for a conflict that he regarded as inevitable. In November 1939, he persuaded Congress to repeal the arms embargo provisions of the neutrality law so that arms could be sold to France and Britain. After the fall of France in the spring of June 1940, he pushed for a major military buildup and began providing aid in the form of Lend-Lease to Britain, which now stood alone against the Axis powers. America, he declared, must become "the great arsenal of democracy." From then on, America's capacity to produce hundreds of thousands of tanks, airplanes, and ships for itself and its allies proved a crucial factor in Allied success, as did the fierce resistance of the Soviet Union, which had joined the war in June 1941 after being attacked by Germany."

I'm aware of World War II, and its aftermath.

Not all conflicts end up in situations like Syria and Afghanistan.

The Federation is simply very conservative in this area. They don't want any chance of being stuck in a quagmire that may take decades to extract themselves from.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The Klingon Civil War was ostensibly an internal affair, and that's why the Federation wouldn't get openly involved. Proving Romulan involvement was the line that had to be crossed for the Federation to get involved, which is why, once Romulan involvement was exposed by the blockade (which was formed based on the suspicion of Romulan involvement) , it was game over for the Romulans.

So the World War II analogy doesn't work at all, unless you go back to Hitler's rise to power in Germany.

 

[The Librarian]

The Federation may have decided that direct interference with the civil war could have resulted in Gowron losing. If he couldn't beat Duras with just his own forces from the Klingon Empire, then in the eyes of many Klingons he wouldn't be worthy of being chancellor. This is what happened with Duras, when their superior force melted away once the Romulan interference was exposed. The Federation could have been stuck propping him up for years, until someone stuck a blade in him and then the Klingons would be adversaries. So, from a pragmatic viewpoint, the best option is to stay out of it and be prepared to butter up House Duras. If they're willing to get help from the Romulans under the table, they're probably willing to make deals with the Feds too.

 

[Mojochi]

Ultimately, the reason for a rule like their prime directive is twofold. First, it obviously protects others from influence & coercion that might effect their societal construct, which his just as relevant to advanced societies as it is to primitive ones. Secondly, & much less notably, it exists to protect the would be interferer.

Those you interfere with now represent a potential responsibility to YOU. You have now stuck your nose in where it needn't belong, which potentially is as equally harmful to your own society as it might be to theirs. You risk your own way of life as well as theirs. Look how shitty my own U.S. is looked at for how long they've played world police? It's a crap scheme imho

For the UFP to openly & actively involve themselves in a Klingon civil war, could change how everyone will think of the UFP, & quite a lot of their relationships are built on the principle that they don't force their will on people. It's in large part that benevolence which grants them the respect of other races.

That no one think of them as a threat is a central ideal ("We mean you no harm") So that when someone like Romulans DO think of them as a threat anyway, it says more about the Romulans that think that, than it does the UFP. You now hold the sociopolitical moral high ground, because you are not the instigator. It's the preferred position imho

 

[Guy Gardener]

Donald Trump Junior asked for Help from the Russians to win the 2016 presidential election.

Lursa and Bator asked for help from the Romulans to "legally" over throw their own "dishonourable" government in the Klingon Civil War.

Samesies?

 

[Tenacity]

In the case of the Klingon civil war, I don't think the the non interference in Klingon affairs was a matter of the prime directive, more diplomatic policy. It doesn't seem to fit how the prime directive is usually described.

Donald Trump Junior asked for Help from the Russians to win the 2016 presidential election.

Interesting supposition, but still no proof.

 

[SpyOne]

I agree this isn't about the Prime Directive. That applies to interacting with societies that are not aware of life on other worlds.
However, the Federation seems to have a policy of not interfering in the internal affairs of other powers.
And the great loophole to that policy is that if another power is already interfering, then it is no longer an internal matter. As soon as there was proof of Romulans trying to influence the outcome, the Federation was free to pick a side.

The United States has long had a policy of offering aid to our allies, and one form this aid might take is people to train your forces in how to fight rebels bent on the overthrow of your government.
The US also has long had a policy of offering aid to the enemies of our enemies, and one of the forms this aid might take is people to train your forces in how to overthrow the existing government allowing you to seize power.
You can probably guess where this is going, sadly. Yes, both of those kinds of aid might be offered unofficially and covertly. And sometimes they are offered mostly to keep they guys who do that for us in practice.
And at least once we have wound up running both sides of someone else's civil war.

The Federation seems to have decided that the best way to prevent that is to not interfere at all in other people's civil wars. "Have a nice time and let us know who wins." Or perhaps "The only way to win is not to play."

I can't say I agree with the Federation on this one, but I do think I'd have a difficult time (maybe impossible) setting up rules to make sure you are only ever backing the "good guys". Maybe "back nobody" is the only way to be sure you don't back the villains.

 

[Sibyl]

I agree this isn't about the Prime Directive. That applies to interacting with societies that are not aware of life on other worlds.
However, the Federation seems to have a policy of not interfering in the internal affairs of other powers.
And the great loophole to that policy is that if another power is already interfering, then it is no longer an internal matter. As soon as there was proof of Romulans trying to influence the outcome, the Federation was free to pick a side.

The United States has long had a policy of offering aid to our allies, and one form this aid might take is people to train your forces in how to fight rebels bent on the overthrow of your government.
The US also has long had a policy of offering aid to the enemies of our enemies, and one of the forms this aid might take is people to train your forces in how to overthrow the existing government allowing you to seize power.
You can probably guess where this is going, sadly. Yes, both of those kinds of aid might be offered unofficially and covertly. And sometimes they are offered mostly to keep they guys who do that for us in practice.
And at least once we have wound up running both sides of someone else's civil war.

The Federation seems to have decided that the best way to prevent that is to not interfere at all in other people's civil wars. "Have a nice time and let us know who wins." Or perhaps "The only way to win is not to play."

I can't say I agree with the Federation on this one, but I do think I'd have a difficult time (maybe impossible) setting up rules to make sure you are only ever backing the "good guys". Maybe "back nobody" is the only way to be sure you don't back the villains.

Thank you. You put it more eloquently than I did, but that's what I was pondering. It sounded in the episode as if Picard was invoking the Prime Directive, and that didn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

[Kor]

Something I don't get about how the Prime Directive was treated in portions of the series (from TNG onward): Why does non-interference apply to advanced societies? The one specific instance I'm thinking of is not involving the Federation or Starfleet in the Klingon Civil War.

Here, you have one faction that has already demonstrated their desire to collaborate with the Romulans, and here you have a faction that has the legal right to lead asking for the Federation's assistance while warning the Federation that the faction that lost their legal claim to the Council will surely work with the Romulans to overthrow the Federation and without the Federation's help it seems likely that it will be the case. I mean...it seems like kind of a no-brainer.

This is not a case of preventing a primitive race from developing naturally, and it is not a case of providing knowledge or technology to a race that has not shown its ability to deal with it. This is the protection of the Federation, itself.

Why would that even be a thing???

Non-interference in other society's internal affairs is not the same directive as the Prime Directive.

Kor

 

[Timo]

How so? In the Circle Trilogy of DS9, the two are considered synonyms. Or, the meddling with Bajoran politics would be a PD violation specifically:

Admiral Chekote: "Then you're saying it's a genuine political revolution internal to Bajor."
Sisko: "Supported by the Cardassians."
Chekote: "But internal to Bajor. The Cardassians might involve themselves in other people's civil wars, but we don't. The Prime Directive applies, Ben."

The PD is intimately related to noninterference, at all stages and levels. It is less closely related to first contacts, which sort of just happen, often out of UFP control, and have associated damage control protocols. But the PD encompasses a lot of stuff.

Is the PD the same as Starfleet General Order One? The practical effect is the same. But formally, it may be that GO1 just reads "Starfleet personnel must follow the Prime Directive on all occasions", whereas the PD itself is a more general regulation extending beyond Starfleet and covering more ground than what the practical applications for Starfleet might be.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

I'm not even sure what non-interference exactly means.

Apparently contacting the Edo (TNG: Justice), telling them that they are from other worlds and have more advanced technology isn't a problem. I don't think there was any indication the Enterprise crew knew the Edo had been contacted by other aliens before this "god thing" revealed itself. Even in the same episode, taking Wesley by force is considered a possible breach of the Prime Directive.

Then later on in TNG, it seems that even just revealing your existence to pre-warp cultures is already considered interference and a breach of the prime directive...(Though we don't know for certain, I would be highly surprised if the Edo were warp capable.)

 

[Timo]

But warp capability is not a requirement for anything, as already discussed.

What happens in "Justice" is that the heroes "discover" the place and then send down an away team to make contact. So the UFP is not in contact with these folks, or even aware of them, beforehand. But Yar's team is credited with fact-finding, even if Picard initially suggests its purpose was contacting - and both TOS and episodes like "First Contact" suggest that covert reconnaissance is a thing Starfleet does prior to contact. It's also fairly common that covert reconnaissance turns into contact soon enough; this need not mean that the formalities were not properly handled.

We don't know if the folks of Rubicun III are aware of space aliens before Yar tells them "Why, I am one!". We don't learn anything that would tell us that they are not, though. God in orbit allows aliens to visit the planet, demonstrably. The locals (in the planetary capital, or some random city?) clearly haven't yet had the opportunity to execute any such visitors, but the odds of that happening are supposed to be low to begin with.

Timo Saloniemi