“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[Grendelsbayne]

I think part of that is because much of modern serialised stuff has its roots in the miniseries. Going back to something like Roots or Shogun, the trend has always been there. The problem is that almost any serialised show always has to have a planned end point. Even the ones that go on for bloody ever tend to have that to some extent. GoT had the books as their base for a while. Now they don’t and things have got different. But having a story to tell is important. Stuff like DSC cleaves more to something like the Buffy model (or should do) and I think could stand to go a few more episodes. The writers just need to work on their pacing. The fact we jumped ahead in DSC shows that more could have been done. The fact only one show had a planet in as well. It could have done with an epilogue ending episode, allowing the end more time to breathe. As it stands, some of that first season seems like a feature film plot spread thinly rather than a story dense with detail being told across fifteen episodes. Part of that is because of the glorified extras filling the bridge.
More balance, and the whole thing would have worked better over more episodes.
It was being out out weekly so it’s not like it was planned for binge watching.

The Buffy 50/50 model (also arguably applicable to DS9, at least later on) is definitely my preference in general. But I don't think DSC showed any significant tendencies towards it yet. Magic... is really the only episode in the whole season I could honestly call truly self-contained, plot-wise.

I definitely agree the pacing of the final arc needed serious adjustment. Lorca needed either an extra episode or a different episode to actually pay off his long-term plot properly. The 'we're losing the war' bit was way too rushed and offscreen to ever justify the shocky 'let's put the evil emperor in charge' idea, and L'Rell's treaty wasn't supported by nearly enough foundation of 'learning to understand the other', because the only thing they allowed themselves to show was Tyler being conflicted (which doesn't actually entire count as gaining insight into Klingons), Mirror Voq being a hero and Klingons on Qonos having normal lives (which, of course they do). A decompression episode after would not have been the worst idea in the world, either, though to make it work it would probably have to dig deeper into Burnham's status and make a bigger deal out of her pardon.

Says who?

Reality.

 

[Tuskin38]

Back when Fuller was showrunner, the Mirror Universe was going be during the first half of the season. When he left, the new people felt we should get to know the characters more before we meet their mirror counterparts, so it was pushed back.

 

[jaime]

Back when Fuller was showrunner, the Mirror Universe was going be during the first half of the season. When he left, the new people felt we should get to know the characters more before we meet their mirror counterparts, so it was pushed back.

Thank goodness for that.
I am coming to the conclusion I actually do t think much of Fullers work, even when it’s in arenas that do appeal to me. (I.e I am never gonna watch Hannibal. Ever.)

 

[BillJ]

Definitely will give the Picard show a try, though I'm actually looking forward more to a new take on The Twilight Zone.

 

[eschaton]

I don't really have the same problem going back and rewatching old Star Trek or other such things, so I'm pretty sure the real issue (beyond cost) is simply that 26 episode seasons are not at all compatable with a serialized storytelling format. If people today were happy to accept purely episodic fare like TNG, then it would be fine. But they aren't, for the most part. (Some present company excepted, I'm sure)

I think the other aspect is that with the move to short seasons, the whole industry has shifted as well. Actors can work on two shows in an alternating fashion, or work in a movie appearance when the show is off season. In contrast, there isn't much time off with a long-season show.

 

[eschaton]

It had the pieces to make the content. It was just too tight focus and the writers and production team didn’t seem to be up to it some days. Burnham chasing Sarus forgiveness could have been a wider arc involving other or the crew. Tilly’s training was there for all of five minutes passing, and we never really see that relationship build. There’s lots of blanks the audience is having to fill in, then things like the finale get rushed. Ash reconnecting with L’Rell just sort of happens and makes very little sense, but the pieces were there for it to make sense. It just did t happen, because they went for a pace trying to gloss over things and keep excitement in whizz bang.

The issue wasn't run time, it was execution.

As I repeatedly have pointed out, Game of Thrones fleshed out something like three times as many characters in its first season. Of course they had the easier job, since the first season was just a straight-up adaptation of book one of ASOAIF, but still, it can be done in roughly the same run time as Discovery.

Now, I agree there was too much plot for the runtime, but there was ample time available to flesh out the relatively small main cast.

 

[eschaton]

Back when Fuller was showrunner, the Mirror Universe was going be during the first half of the season. When he left, the new people felt we should get to know the characters more before we meet their mirror counterparts, so it was pushed back.

Honestly, Fuller's idea might have been better.

I mean, we know that episodes 7/8 were padding which was added to the series. Episode 7 was probably the best of the season. Episode 8 was probably the worst, though at least we got to see a planet. Regardless, a wash overall.

The remainder of the beginning of the series was taken up mostly with the "Tardigrade arc." I believe that was not originally intended by Fuller, because the original plans were that the Tardigrade would be a bridge officer, before they decided the CGI was too expensive.

We also know that Fuller did not want Lorca to be from the MU. That was Harberts and Berg's idea after he left.

So let's strip all of that back. Characters are introduced after the prologue. They attempt to jump using their drive (unclear if spore drive was a thing yet) and end up in MU. Adventures there likely finish with only three episodes due to lack of Lorca heel turn. They get back in time for the end of Chapter 1. Then they have all of Chapter 2 to resolve the Klingon War, instead of the rushed two-parter we got instead.

 

[jaime]

The issue wasn't run time, it was execution.

As I repeatedly have pointed out, Game of Thrones fleshed out something like three times as many characters in its first season. Of course they had the easier job, since the first season was just a straight-up adaptation of book one of ASOAIF, but still, it can be done in roughly the same run time as Discovery.

Now, I agree there was too much plot for the runtime, but there was ample time available to flesh out the relatively small main cast.

More episodes would have given the plot room and allowed for better character stuff is sort of my point.

 

[ITDUDE]

More episodes would have given the plot room and allowed for better character stuff is sort of my point.

Quality beats quantity every time. Now it IS too much to ask of STD writers to be like GoT, but even with 15 episodes we could have had, oh for example the bridge crew, have more to say than about one line per episode (at most). We also know nothing about them. How/when exactly did Detmer get injured? Who/what is Ariam? We have seen them for a year, we know nothing.

 

[Tuskin38]

Season 1 had 15, but two of the episodes were given to them after they started shooting IIRC.

I'm betting the Mudd time loop was one of the extras.

Season 2 so far appears to only have 13 episodes.

 

[eschaton]

More episodes would have given the plot room and allowed for better character stuff is sort of my point.

I dunno. I'm worried with more episodes they'd just cram in more plot. Basically, the problem was when they were "mapping things out" they put far more up on the board than they had the capacity to handle. Which is part of why some plot elements (like what L'Rell's plan actually is) aren't even explained/make no sense. If they had more episodes, they just may have elaborated things or added additional "twists" which weren't needed from a character standpoint.

I'm betting the Mudd time loop was one of the extras.

The Pahvo episode was the other one added late in production. At the insistence of CBS, who was complaining that there were no planetside adventures yet.

 

[jaime]

I dunno. I'm worried with more episodes they'd just cram in more plot. Basically, the problem was when they were "mapping things out" they put far more up on the board than they had the capacity to handle. Which is part of why some plot elements (like what L'Rell's plan actually is) aren't even explained/make no sense. If they had more episodes, they just may have elaborated things or added additional "twists" which weren't needed from a character standpoint.



The Pahvo episode was the other one added late in production. At the insistence of CBS, who was complaining that there were no planetisde adventures yet.

Yeah I am not sure the writers and production team were up to it tbh.

 

[Longinus]

I dunno. I'm worried with more episodes they'd just cram in more plot. Basically, the problem was when they were "mapping things out" they put far more up on the board than they had the capacity to handle. Which is part of why some plot elements (like what L'Rell's plan actually is) aren't even explained/make no sense. If they had more episodes, they just may have elaborated things or added additional "twists" which weren't needed from a character standpoint.

They should have just concentrated on the Klingon war. Things were progressing somewhat logically during the first half of the season, but then they just switched the gears into the insanus mode and whole thing fell apart. Then they hastily tried to tie it together in the last episode, and that didn't even remotely work.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah I am not sure the writers and production team were up to it tbh.

I'll be curious to see how Season 2 is handled. I'll be more critical of that one than Season 1.

 

[jaime]

I'll be curious to see how Season 2 is handled. I'll be more critical of that one than Season 1.

I too hope they have found their Michael Piller.

 

[ITDUDE]

I'll be curious to see how Season 2 is handled. I'll be more critical of that one than Season 1.

Yeah, but I am sure not everyone will be. If Season 2 is no better than Season 1, there will still be those who will bring up TNG Season 1 and 2 as example of a show that only got good only during Season 3.

 

[eschaton]

They should have just concentrated on the Klingon war. Things were progressing somewhat logically during the first half of the season, but then they just switched the gears into the insanus mode and whole thing fell apart. Then they hastily tried to tie it together in the last episode, and that didn't even remotely work.

I agree. As Act 1 rambled on I found myself getting drawn in. While not the deepest episode, Episode 9 (the mid-season finale) was very well done. Then we went to the MU, it descended into schlock (first fun, then insulting with Lorca's heel turn), and finally two episodes which seemed like they were written on the back side of a napkin.

Yeah, but I am sure not everyone will be. If Season 2 is no better than Season 1, there will still be those who will bring up TNG Season 1 and 2 as example of a show that only got good only during Season 3.

TNG Season 2 wasn't as bad as it's now remembered. Lots of good to great episodes, including Elementary Dear Data, the Schizoid Man, A Matter of Honor, The Measure of a Man, Pen Pals, Q Who?, The Emissary, and Peak Performance. The only really bad episodes were Shades of Gray and that ridiculous one with the Irish planet.

Edit: To show you how much Berman Trek went downhill, if you transported (no pun intended) TNG Season 2 somehow into VOY or ENT, it would be by far the best season of either series.

 

[Syd Shanshala]

SPS even said if himself when he announced it, it will be “different” than TNG and the TNG movies. When we see the first teaser and it looks and feels like DSC and the JJverse, hell will freeze over, the boycotts and SJW Picard memes will flow, and the hate will be as palpable as ever. And oh sweet god, the first time Picard thinks back and mentions reading about the adventures of Michael Burnham at the Academy, the internet will break. And I’ll still be there in awe watching my beloved Trek getting a new lease on life, when 10 years ago I thought it was dead forever. Seriously, I can’t wait.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, but I am sure not everyone will be. If Season 2 is no better than Season 1, there will still be those who will bring up TNG Season 1 and 2 as example of a show that only got good only during Season 3.

And? There are people who are going to hate it no matter how good Season 2 is. I have lost the ability to care that people are not going to like something. I don't play the comparison game any more. It's exhausting and frustrating and irritating. I would rather approach a show as it is, on its own merits, than demand it meet my expectation of what Star Trek should be.

 

[TrickyDickie]

I wonder if Jean-Luc will still be having his Earl Grey?

https://mindhacks.com/2009/10/15/tea-intoxication/

Or would the replicators take care of that situation?