Is Toxic "Star Wars" Fandom Imploding?

[johnjm22]

Attempted suicide is not a minor thing. It's a "minor" thing. See how that works?

And "totally irrelevant."

I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else by my usage of scare-quotes. It was not meant to downplay the meaning of the word.

And to be clear, I was referring to this discussion about the word "Toxic" being minor and irrelevant. I'm not saying you're implying otherwise, but I want to make it clear I wasn't referring to to harassment/suicide.

So we're on this stupid tangent simply because you have some weird hang-up with using commonplace words?

Yes, that's why I said it was minor and irrelevant.

 

[suarezguy]

We aren't owed anything, no one in the relationship between creator and consumer warrants the word "beholden".

That seems maybe a little contradictory; if the creators also aren't entitled to anything from the consumers, that includes that they aren't entitled to the consumers not having high expectations.

STD and SW have both served recently to illustrate this, they have been by and large very successful and well accepted by the fans, but reading the larger conversations happening you would think they were spectacular failures whose catastrophic shortcomings and unpopularity need explaining, precisely because a few very vocal opinions have been thrust into the limelight in contrary to the evidence.

The Disney Star Wars films has been mostly successful financially, as was the prequel trilogy, but what makes you think they were widely accepted by the fans rather than that they were neither successes nor failures but polarizing to the fans?

 

[johnjm22]

Saying “Don’t feed the trolls” is victim blaming in some cases. At a certain point it stops being trolling and becomes harassment.

That's very easy (and somewhat callous) for you to say as someone not directly affected by it, but those people who the trolls are attacking don't have the luxury of just ignoring it, nor should others, because it gives the impression of indifference or even tacit approval.

I'm not talking about victims.

I'm talking about us and the media enticing toxic behavior by giving attention to those who engage in it.

When casting announcements were made for Discovery there were articles written about racist Star Trek fans. I'm looking through one of these articles and the author links to 3 or 4 tweets of people complaining about diversity. These tweets were made by absolute nobodies. Why give these people attention? That's what they want. It just encourages more of it.

 

[Spot261]

That seems maybe a little contradictory; if the creators also aren't entitled to anything from the consumers, that includes that they aren't entitled to the consumers not having high expectations.

Sorry, I'm going to need that spelt out a little more clearly.

The Disney Star Wars films has been mostly successful financially, as was the prequel trilogy, but what makes you think they were widely accepted by the fans rather than that they were neither successes nor failures but polarizing to the fans?

Simples, the most objective way of gauging fan reactions to a film are surveys conducted at the point of leaving the theatre, prior to influence from extraneous media sources which could bias or sway opinions and perceptions.

Those surveys were consistent in their results, TFA and TLJ were overwhelmingly viewed positively, as reinforced by the initial ratings on RT. That those ratings has dropped is actually not all that helpful in telling us anything because there are now hundreds of factors in play influencing results over time. The key scores are the early averages and they were sky high.

 

[johnjm22]

Simples, the most objective way of gauging fan reactions to a film are surveys conducted at the point of leaving the theatre, prior to influence from extraneous media sources which could bias or sway opinions and perceptions.

Those surveys were consistent in their results, TFA and TLJ were overwhelmingly viewed positively, as reinforced by the initial ratings on RT. That those ratings has dropped is actually not all that helpful in telling us anything because there are now hundreds of factors in play influencing results over time. The key scores are the early averages and they were sky high.

I assume you're referring to the CinemaScore?

There's no perfect metric. CinemaScore is flawed just like the rest of them. The most common rating given out by CinemaScore is A range. So getting that score doesn't really mean much. Every live action Star Wars movie has scored A range.

CS doesn't account for the positive bias people have after just seeing a film. We want the film to be good. We just payed money to see it. That bias is even stronger for hyped up films like Star Wars. Those initial viewers are likely very hardcore fans. Low CS scores are actually pretty rare.

 

[Spot261]

I assume you're referring to the CinemaScore?

There's no perfect metric. CinemaScore is flawed just like the rest of them. The most common rating given out by CinemaScore is A range. So getting that score doesn't really mean much. Every live action Star Wars movie has scored A range.

CS doesn't account for the positive bias people have after just seeing a film. We want the film to be good. We just payed money to see it. That bias is even stronger for hyped up films like Star Wars. Those initial viewers are likely very hardcore fans. Low CS scores are actually pretty rare.

Of course there's no perfect metric, only degrees of quality, but RT ratings months after the fact are simply not even remotely usable. The recency bias is in no way comparable to that of extraneous sources and outside influence, which is why immediacy is important, it also avoids much of the political loading which is now almost a given for online sources.

The fact is the films have been immensely popular, period.

 

[starsuperion]

Of course there's no perfect metric, only degrees of quality, but RT ratings months after the fact are simply not even remotely usable. The recency bias is in no way comparable to that of extraneous sources and outside influence, which is why immediacy is important, it also avoids much of the political loading which is now almost a given for online sources.

The fact is the films have been immensely popular, period.

Initial viewing and retention account for what and how a film in a franchise is recieved later. The flaw in your argument is that TLJ while initally popular, soon became the straw that broke the fandom's back, this translating into the reaction of Solo. So if the next movie suffers as well, even with all the "gimmicks" Jar Jar Abrams brings to the table, then I will be proven right. If episode IX redeems the Disney trilogy, then you would be correct. It remains to be seen how the new movie will be received given all the problems the fandom has had to endure.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I'm not talking about victims.

I'm talking about us and the media enticing toxic behavior by giving attention to those who engage in it.

When casting announcements were made for Discovery there were articles written about racist Star Trek fans. I'm looking through one of these articles and the author links to 3 or 4 tweets of people complaining about diversity. These tweets were made by absolute nobodies. Why give these people attention? That's what they want. It just encourages more of it.

Well, we're not talking about 3 or 4 tweets and some clickbait articles, we're talking about a concerted effort of bigoted and misogynist assholes on sites like 4chan and in groups like GamerGate and its spin-offs to attack women and people of color in the franchise, so instead of constantly minimizing the issue and being dismissive, maybe you can engage with what we're actually talking about?

 

[johnjm22]

Well, we're not talking about 3 or 4 tweets and some clickbait articles, we're talking about a concerted effort of bigoted and misogynist assholes on sites like 4chan and in groups like GamerGate and its spin-offs to attack women and people of color in the franchise, so instead of constantly minimizing the issue and being dismissive, maybe you can engage with what we're actually talking about?

I'm literally agreeing with the article you posted to start off the thread and you're telling me I'm not engaging with what you're talking about?

The article says:
"If those engaging in this manbaby behavior keep getting the media to pay enough attention that they become part of the narrative, they will keep winning."

Or are you referring to the discussion of scare-quotes and the word toxic? You commented on it so I responded and explained.

I think the misogynist assholes on 4chan and elsewhere make up an extremely small portion of people. Giving them more attention just makes them more relevant. That's my opinion.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I'm literally agreeing with the article you posted to start off the thread and you're telling me I'm not engaging with what you're talking about?

The article says:
"If those engaging in this manbaby behavior keep getting the media to pay enough attention that they become part of the narrative, they will keep winning."

I already explained to you that the thread was started as a parody of another negative thread and then grew into its own larger discussion that went far beyond the bounds of that article.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I think the narrative about the toxic fans should be one of mockery instead of acting like they're the voice of the fandom like a few individuals here would like us to think. They don't deserve to have their opinions spread, just openly mocked for how pathetic it is. A bunch of grown men crying because there are too many women in Star Wars. It's one of the saddest things to emerge from the internet and there's been a lot of sad things to emerge on the internet. I wish they all had one pair of underwear so I could give them a wedgie.

 

[johnjm22]

I already explained to you that the thread was started as a parody of another negative thread and then grew into its own larger discussion that went far beyond the bounds of that article.

Yes I read that comment. I honestly don't see how my opinion is off topic. I'm sorry if it is.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the narrative about the toxic fans should be one of mockery instead of acting like they're the voice of the fandom like a few individuals here would like us to think. They don't deserve to have their opinions spread, just openly mocked for how pathetic it is. A bunch of grown men crying because there are too many women in Star Wars. It's one of the saddest things to emerge from the internet and there's been a lot of sad things to emerge on the internet. I wish they all had one pair of underwear so I could give them a wedgie.

Mockery confirms what they already believe-that they are right and the people who mock them are wrong. Toxicity continues because there is a desire to banish these people without accepting them as people. I realize that this is a controversial statement, I know that it will be brought up that racist and such language should not be tolerated, but I have to ask the question that if we are constantly banishing such thoughts, then those who hold them are going to do what they did.

I don't have the answer for exactly how to deal with it. No, I don't think giving them attention or weight is the best way, but treating them as sub-human isn't the way either. There has to be a balance. These are people after all, not matter how loathsome their opinions are.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

He didn’t make any creative decisions though. He wrote a draft and was supposed to direct, but dropped out and a new script was written. He got a producer credit because of various rules and contracts. A lot of producers in film have nothing to do with the actual film. They were just attached, paid for some part or was friends with the right person. Some are more engaged and others just get a check for nothing.

I am not arguing against what you say. I hope you can appreciate that I am not the arbitrator of such things. If the official record still credits him I have to respect that. So for someone to call me out as being incorrect on that point was them self wrong (don't want to mention names because A) I don't recall and B) I am too old & tired to war with anyone).

Thank you for the clarification though.

 

[Refuge]

I think as an audience who pays for a product we are owed something. This is a business as much as a creative and entertainment process. We the ticket buyers and audience are constantly being appealed to and wooed so we can hand over our money. So writers and producers can get rich. I expect value for my money and if it is shit writing then the same people who would indulge in praise can expect a little critiquing.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

If you watch every episode, they do not give a damn what you say online. You're still watching every episode. They got their money.

In terms of television, yes. If you continue to watch a television series you are supporting it. I was speaking of theatrical films, So your argument to my point is fallacious. Regardless, the networks and studios do look at trends. A key feature of my thesis has been individually we may not be heard, however, the more folks that do put their opinions are collectively creating a pool of data that can be mined for trends and overall sentiments.

Also, in terms of television, people grow disenchanted they stop watching. Enough folks stop watching it can motivate changes or cancellation depending on the degree of decline and what their research may reveal. That research is, to varying degrees, informed by general fan response (both on- and off- line).

And they really are not going to dig through internet forums to decide what's working and what isn't. They have their own methods for that.

Yet they do. Read William Goldman's classic book "Adventures in the Screen Trade." One of his nuggets of earned wisdom was simply the truism that nobody in Hollywood really knows what they are doing or why. The don't know what makes something a hit. Otherwise they could replicate it at will. I would submit even Gene Roddenberry didn't completely understand the magic of his creation. The same goes for George Lucas and Star Wars which is why he took the negative online criticisms of the prequal trilogy so hard - he was caught by surprise. The Han Solo/Greto scene in EP 4 is another example. So there is no formula. They are people grasping at straws and looking to play things safer and safer. They are nostalgia peddlers looking to cover their behinds.

This risk averse, quantity obsessed attitude that is supposedly 'ruining' franchises now is the same attitude that created them in the first place. Especially in the case of Star Trek.

Actually, you are wrong. Remember the context of the time. In the 1960's there was real competition in the marketplace. Rules governed what networks could or could not do. What they could own and to what degree. The networks largely had to go outside themselves for content. The production studios both large and small pitched their best shots for getting a network order or, even then, something they could syndicate (like say "Sea Hunt" or "Highway Patrol"). Today the landscape is incestuous and anti-competitive.

 

[fireproof78]

They are nostalgia peddlers looking to cover their behinds.

They are gambling with a lot of money. I would be as well.

 

[Kerock]

 

[Spot261]

The flaw in your argument is that TLJ while initally popular, soon became the straw that broke the fandom's back, this translating into the reaction of Solo

Evidence? One was successful, the other not. It's quite an assertion to claim the first resulted in the second without serious evidence for causality. Otherwise Occam's Razor has a very telling role to play in this scenario.

If episode IX redeems the Disney trilogy, then you would be correct

Why would it need redeeming? Seems just fine to me.

It remains to be seen how the new movie will be received given all the problems the fandom has had to endure.

You mean "all the problems the fandom have caused"?

Seriously, as a fan the only thing I've endured is embarrassment at the behaviour of some of my peers. YMMV

 

[The Wormhole]

You know, I look at Chewie wearing a blue Starfleet uniform and having Vulcan ears, and my reaction is "this feels so right."