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Casting Pike's Number One

But McCoy went to medical school. If universities in the future are like they are now, he probably studied some history too. It's not implausible that he would be aware of historical terms for his profession that have relevance to the history of where he was from, however many centuries before it happened. In TOS, McCoy seemed proud of being from Georgia, and he also knew that, hundreds of years before his time, people were sewn like garments. :shrug:
Since the character was written only 100 years after the civil war I can get with that, but the further we are away from the real history of the US, the less likely IMO the character will be aware of 500 year old medical slang. But I don't know what medical history they teach in medical schools.
 
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If the audience is familiar with USA civil war history they might get it, for the rest of us, well I had no idea where the name came from, so the ST09 reason is as good as any. I think the reboot reason works better since its intended audience is global, unlike the TOS audience in the 1960's
But that makes no sense. The in-universe reason a character is referred to this way or that shouldn't and indeed can't depend on out-of-universe expectations of audience knowledge. The etymology of the term is what it is, whether "everyone knows" it or not.

The term "sawbones" was familiar to American audiences in the 1960s because the Hollywood Western had been a dominant movie genre since the days of the silents and television westerns were popular on TV from its earliest days right through the 60s.

All of that is fifty years past, now, and largely forgotten by generations that have their own, different versions of escapist, thoughtless fantasy mass entertainment.
You're probably right about the context of the era's TV programming. But the background (for both those shows and Trek) is simply the English language itself, and the history that shaped it. I'm too young to have grown up immersed in genre westerns, and I never became much of a fan of them after the fact. Nevertheless, I've known since childhood that "sawbones" was an old-fashioned slang term for doctors. It's just a matter of being conversant in one's culture.

There's no excuse for dumbing down entertainment to make it accessible to people who aren't conversant in the culture from which it emerges; all that does is deprive them of the chance to learn anything, and make the resulting work more shallow and generic.
 
If the audience is familiar with USA civil war history they might get it, for the rest of us, well I had no idea where the name came from, so the ST09 reason is as good as any. I think the reboot reason works better since its intended audience is global, unlike the TOS audience in the 1960's
Pretty much this. There is no canonical explanation of his nickname, nor why it should only be one way that McCoy ended up with it.
 
Canon sidebar: does McCoy ever actually say he is from Georgia? I'm drawing a blank here.
Hrm. I'm not finding a canon reference either at the moment! He's drinking "a real cold Georgia-style mint julep" in "This Side of Paradise," which is certainly suggestive.

It's in his character biography that he was born in Georgia, on page 240 of TMoST. It seems like it might be a bit of life history that was borrowed over from DeForest Kelley's life (who was born in Georgia; TMoST says Atlanta on page 241, but Wikipedia says Toccoa).
 
All I'm getting is references to the South. McCoy's bean recipe is an old Southern recipe handed down to him from his father (STV). One of his great great granddaddies allegedly had the finest garden in the South ("The Infinite Vulcan").
 
There's no excuse for dumbing down entertainment to make it accessible to people who aren't conversant in the culture from which it emerges; all that does is deprive them of the chance to learn anything, and make the resulting work more shallow and generic.

It's not dumbing down. It's just acknowledging that a term has become more archaic or obscure over the decades, so you can't assume that it's common knowledge anymore. Times changes, audiences, change, and the point is to communicate with the audience, not confuse them. So you make adjustments to accommodate that.

Look at the word "gay." You can be a purist and insist that it still means "merry," or you can be a pragmatist and acknowledge that the word mostly means something else to modern listeners. Doesn't mean you're dumbing things down. It's just the difference between using the word in one era and using it in another.
 
It's not dumbing down. It's just acknowledging that a term has become more archaic or obscure over the decades, so you can't assume that it's common knowledge anymore. Times changes, audiences, change, and the point is to communicate with the audience, not confuse them. So you make adjustments to accommodate that.

Look at the word "gay." You can be a purist and insist that it still means "merry," or you can be a pragmatist and acknowledge that the word mostly means something else to modern listeners. Doesn't mean you're dumbing things down. It's just the difference between using the word in one era and using it in another.

Exactly so.

The fact that much of the humorous wordplay in Shakespeare is not immediately intelligible to a lot of contemporary readers has nothing to do with folks being dumber or poorly informed.
 
I think this works just fine for contemporary audiences who would have absolutely no idea what "sawbones" is all about.
Why do you assume contemporary audiences are so ignorant?

It's not dumbing down. It's just acknowledging that a term has become more archaic or obscure over the decades, so you can't assume that it's common knowledge anymore. Times changes, audiences, change, and the point is to communicate with the audience, not confuse them. So you make adjustments to accommodate that.
On the one hand, I agree with you: the point of any storytelling is to communicate with the audience. (Of course, this compels the question of who exactly the audience is intended to be, and implicates the art-vs-commerce tension of writing for those who will most appreciate the work, vs. trying to attract the largest possible audience for commercial reasons.)

On the other hand, the broader the audience one tries to attract, the more this impulse toward communication does incentivize "dumbing things down," because one can't really be sure what constitutes "common knowledge" for the audience, so the safest assumption is "next to nothing."

I think that's an impulse worth resisting. I tend to operate on the assumption, undeniably somewhat solipsistic but not otherwise unreasonable, that if I know something (outside my personal fields of professional expertise), it qualifies as "common knowledge." Granted I'm pretty widely read, but the underlying point is that the information is out there—more easily accessible than ever in this day and age—and if other people are so incurious as not to have acquired it, and not to ask questions or otherwise seek more information when they encounter something unfamiliar, then the fault for that lies entirely on them, not on the person trying to communicate with them.

On the third hand (for good measure), we shouldn't forget that we're talking about science fiction here, a genre that by its very nature inherently involves speculation about concepts (cultural, scientific, and otherwise) that are not necessarily common knowledge, and may even be entirely invented. The audience for SF has always been dominated by people who are more educated and more intellectually curious than the population at large, or at the very least more comfortable with unfamiliar concepts. Obscure references just come with the territory.

The fact that much of the humorous wordplay in Shakespeare is not immediately intelligible to a lot of contemporary readers has nothing to do with folks being dumber or poorly informed.
Perhaps. (Although comparisons to popular understanding of Shakespeare just a few generations ago may make that arguable... still, I gather your point is that the main culprit is evolving language.) However, that's definitely not an excuse to change a single word in Shakespeare.

And c'mon, everyone, this shouldn't have to be an either-or thing! If ST09 really felt the need to explain Bones's nickname, a single line of dialogue making joking reference to the word "sawbones" would have served the purpose just as well as the contrivance the film actually used, and clued in any unfamiliar members of the audience without doing violence to the nickname's etymology!
 
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Or it could simply be both. Nicknames often can have multiple origin stories, and McCoy had been called "Bones" before in med school as a reference to Sawbones, while Kirk had his own reasons for calling him that.

Ultimately, the scene in 09 does nothing to invalidate the nickname in TOS.
 
And c'mon, everyone, this shouldn't have to be an either-or thing! If ST09 really felt the need to explain Bones's nickname, a single line of dialogue making joking reference to the word "sawbones" would have served the purpose just as well as the contrivance the film actually used, and clued in any unfamiliar members of the audience without doing violence to the nickname's etymology!

Well it wasn't the writers fault, blame Urban.

Or those who approved of his Ad-lib.
 
Why do you assume contemporary audiences are so ignorant?


On the one hand, I agree with you: the point of any storytelling is to communicate with the audience. (Of course, this compels the question of who exactly the audience is intended to be, and implicates the art-vs-commerce tension of writing for those who will most appreciate the work, vs. trying to attract the largest possible audience for commercial reasons.)

To a large degree, it depends on who you are trying to communicate to. To use an odd comparison, if I'm making a public appearance, I'm going to tailor my content to that particular audience, rather than assume that all audiences have the same common frame of knowledge. If I'm speaking at a Trek convention, I can safely assume that the audience knows what a "tribble" or "Deep Space Nine" is. But if I'm speaking at a public library or a classroom or to a local community arts association, I can't just drop a reference to "The Doomsday Machine" without explanation.

Doesn't mean that the folks at the public library are "ignorant." Just means that what's "common knowledge" to one group is not necessarily common knowledge to others. Doesn't mean I'm "dumbing down" my presentation. Just means that one size does not fit all. Same with language, btw. I'm going to be a lot more G-rated speaking at a grade school than I might be at midnight vampire panel at a horror convention. :)

Same with sawbones. The 2009 movie was written for general audiences in 2009, not just for us hardcore Trekkies or for the TV audiences of the 1960s, when every third show on TV was a Western. Doesn't mean modern audiences are more stupid or ignorant than 1960s audiences; just means they just know different things. (Audiences in 1966 were probably a little fuzzy on what a "ninja" was and were decades away from knowing what a "hacker" or "computer virus" is.)
 
To a large degree, it depends on who you are trying to communicate to. ...
Doesn't mean that the folks at the public library are "ignorant." Just means that what's "common knowledge" to one group is not necessarily common knowledge to others.
True enough. For instance, I teach undergrads, and I am frequently amazed by what's not common knowledge for many of them. But that's not necessarily their fault — younger people have unavoidably had less time to expose themselves to a wide array of knowledge, plus I can't know what their previous educational backgrounds involve — and I make a concerted effort to meet them in the middle, and patiently lay out essential foundation knowledge even when it seems remedial to me. That's part and parcel of teaching.

Still and all... the ones who show intellectual curiosity do just fine in my classes. The ones who don't, who neglect to do the readings, or to pay attention or participate during class discussions, are another story, and oddly enough they're the ones who tend to complain about their grades.

Doesn't mean modern audiences are more stupid or ignorant than 1960s audiences; just means they just know different things.
Just to be clear, I didn't refer to anyone as "stupid." I'm not casting judgment on anyone's intellectual capacity! Ignorance is another sort of thing entirely, and much more easily cured, by those who take the trouble to try.

IOW, we can't and shouldn't define "common knowledge" only by what the most intellectually lazy person can pick up by sheer cultural osmosis. That would provide a frighteningly small foundation for interesting fiction of any sort.
 
Just to be clear, I didn't refer to anyone as "stupid." I'm not casting judgment on anyone's intellectual capacity! Ignorance is another sort of thing entirely, and much more easily cured, by those who take the trouble to try.

IOW, we can't and shouldn't define "common knowledge" only by what the most intellectually lazy person can pick up by sheer cultural osmosis. That would provide a frighteningly small foundation for interesting fiction of any sort.
Curious. What cultural osmosis would lead one to learn what "sawbones" means? I know because I read BTS info on the original series, and enjoy history. Others do not enjoy such things and may be more quickly to think that McCoy is a fan of the show "Bones" than any thing else.
 
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