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The Dark Knight - Ten Years On

I used the term "hyper-realistically" upthread. I think I may have used it before, but as far as I recall it's something I've coined to describe the Nolan films. In this context, I don't mean it as a reference to the genre of painting and sculpture called hyperrealism.

What I mean by "hyper-realism" in the present context is, as the prefix "hyper-" might suggest, exaggerated realism, something that is impossible in actual realism. "Exaggerated realism relative to what" would be the next question. "Relative to earlier conventions pertaining to the adaptation of comic books onto the silver screen" would be the answer.

So, imagine that a given set of earlier conventions establish situations that aren't realistic, and imagine you can turn a dial to alter the situations to adjust them to become more realistic. If you keep turning the dial beyond the point that realism is achieved, you get something that I'm calling "hyper-realistic" in this sense. It's not realistic, because the dial was turned past the point where it would be realistic. It's not necessarily new either, but it's a kind of un-realism that's not in the scope of the specific old conventions under consideration. One example: instead of corny, it's now super-serious.

Just thought I'd clarify what I meant. If there's already established terminology for this, its mention would be appreciated.
 
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Nolan treated the Batman universe like The Godfather or The Sopranos. Every scene was intended to be a set-piece of dramatic conflict, like the big schism between Bruce and Alfred.

What schism? Instead of any real conflict, Alfred just takes off for the rest of TDKR until the end. To say nothing of how real conflict with Gordon is wasted throughout the movies.

You always get the sense that Nolan is trying desperately to make the characters feel like they could be real people rather than larger than life.

I'd say he really only does archetypes than anything else. Especially the one-note obsessives.

Not all movies have to be the same and your personal preferences don't define good filmmaking.

Tell that to the Nolanites.
 
Except no one ever asks you what 2+2 equals. They're always sitting around having casual discussions about long division and you just show up and start shouting '2+2=4!!!!!'

Yep.

but your 'grounded/ashamed of comics' obsession is as ridiculous as it is tiresome. Not all movies have to be the same and your personal preferences don't define good filmmaking.

That's the point certain people will never understand with their MCU defensive position; I already presented why I believe The Dark Knight and Superman (1978) are tied as the greatest of all superhero films, despite both being as different as one could imagine, all due to their rare success at letting the characters be who they were meant to in reference to many of their sourced influences, yet the same old crying comes in to defend something barely mentioned at all by anyone in this thread, as if TDK's mere existence, and its well-earned, celebrated status threatens the entire MCU franchise. If that's the case, then the one defending is--at the end of it all--successfully arguing that their favorite franchise has serious problems requiring protection.
 
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.

Given that Dark Knight Rises borrows a lot from Knightfall and Alfred giving his resignation when he can't support Bruce going after Bane, it's not surprising that that Nolan featured a similar scene in the film.
 
As I think the article points out, many of the "suits" misread what made TDK a good movie. The folks at WB/DC apparently thought it was the movie's tone. They then presented a string of movies that imitated TDK's tone without TDK's acting, directing, and script. This has all but ruined the Superman franchise. Wonder Woman, is of course, the obvious exception.

Grimdark is perfect for Batman but absolutely the wrong choice for Superman, which was the big problem with Man of Steel and the Superman portions of Batman v. Superman.

Although DC has also done a handful of Marvel-inspired movies. Green Lantern feels like it's trying to be Iron Man. Wonder Woman borrows the ancient mythology & fish-out-of-water aspects of Thor and combines them with the World War setting, evil German scientist bad guy, & ethnically diverse commando squad of Captain America: The First Avenger. Suicide Squad went through some last minute re-edits to give it more of a Guardians of the Galaxy vibe. Justice League went the extra mile of getting the actual director of The Avengers to reshoot much of the movie.

That and most of the philosophies presented in the film as absolutes (Die a hero or inevitably become a villain) are outright garbage.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes!

However, I think in terms of impact, Burton-Bats would be number one. I'd argue that the pop-culture ubiquity and proliferation of superheroes/comics really started with 89, as you can trace the lineage through TAS and DCTAS, to the X-men cartoon and X-Men video games, through the X-Men and Spidey films.

Agreed. Granted, we wouldn't have Batman (1989) without Superman (1978) but Batman was really the first watershed moment to the superhero movie genre, which got subsequent boosts from Spider-Man & The Avengers.

2008 is kind of an odd year. The Dark Knight was the bigger movie of the moment and had a huge pop culture footprint at the time. Even now, I still see spoof videos online. But Iron Man launched the eventual juggernaut that is the MCU AND managed to turn Robert Downey Jr. from Hollywood pariah to the most highly paid actor in history. As an actual movie, Iron Man is a bit more meh. But it set the tone for an entire universe of films which has already reached 20 movies and counting!

Superman had done this to a point, but it, so to speak, was either unable to or chose not to extend its serious tone throughout the entire film, especially when it came to its treatment of Luthor, Otis, and Eve.

There was also Christopher Reeve's overly goofy portrayal of Clark Kent.

That also didn't sit well with me and felt half-assed. They easily could have covered up the few murders Dent committed, it's not like there were witnesses saying Harvey killed anyone.

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Of course, I also felt Dent being some "White Knight" was also unearned. He was more a figurehead while Gordon and Batman did the real work.

I found the over philosophy surrounding Harvey Dent to be suspect. So.... the voters of Gotham are willing to support laws that throw violent mobsters in jail and deny them appeals but ONLY because they believe that D.A. Dent has an unsullied, unassailable reputation? If not, they would continue to let their city be run by the mob? Right........

Or, to quote the Rifftrax: "Oh, come on. Most people don't know what the D.A. does or what 'D.A.' even stands for."

The critique on Populism is nigh-nothing, the whole thing about Dent's crimes being exposed was nonsensical because at no point does anyone stop to think "Wait, what if Bane is lying to us?"

God, I love this scene! It so perfectly encapsulates everything that's batshit retarded about the philosophy of the Nolan movies.
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No, they just had no real competition at the time. Put the Nolan movies out against a full force MCU and they wouldn't do as well.

I think there's something to that. The competition certainly felt a lot thinner back in 2008. The MCU was just barely getting started. Spider-Man & X-Men both suffered from crappy 3rd movies. Superman Returns was a non-starter. And most others around that time were just ranging from "meh" to "blegh!" (Catwoman, Daredevil, Elektra, Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, Hulk). (Personally, I love Daredevil but I acknowledge that that's a minority opinion.)

I think Tim Burton was the one who only really cared about the villains. Michael Keaton could have taken the role fully down a Christian Bale path that it hinted at if he actually were given the sort of screen-time Nolan later invested in him.

Tim Burton once said that Batman (1989) is structured the way it is because Batman is an introvert while the Joker is an extrovert. I think that makes sense.

Meanwhile, Batman Returns is more of a gothic fairy tale/revenge story about Catwoman trying to kill Max Schreck. Batman is just her love interest. Now, whether you like that or not depends mostly on your taste for gothic Burton stuff. Personally, I think it's the best comic book movie ever! (Or maybe 2nd behind V for Vendetta.)

Still, I would agree that the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies tended to put a lot more emphasis onto the villains than on Batman himself. Then Nolan came on the scene with Batman Begins, a movie that's nearly all about Batman and explaining who he is and why he does what he does. It was quite refreshing. Unfortunately, it seemed like Nolan lost interest in the character after that. The Dark Knight is trying to be a gritty crime drama about Jim Gordon & Harvey Dent trying to take out the Joker with Batman mostly just showing up for the perfunctory action scenes. Then The Dark Knight Rises is more about Gotham City as a whole, with most of the focus on Commissioner Gordon & John Blake.

I would also argue that Nolan's portrayal of Gotham City got sloppier as the movies went on. The Gotham City of Batman Begins felt very unique and not quite like any other actual city on Earth. In The Dark Knight, it was basically just Chicago with a few bits of New York geography thrown in. The Dark Knight Rises was a hodgepodge of Chicago, New York, Pittsburgh, and even L.A.! (I don't know about anyone else, but seeing Library Tower in the background in some scenes really took me out of the movie.)

Also, I think Legend gets something a bad rap. It's a PG movie that I think ~6-year-olds might well enjoy. Trouble is, when Mask is PG-13 and much more adult/less slapstick, it's weird and discomfiting to see a sequel pitched to a significantly younger audience. If anything, we expect the intended audience to be older, not younger.

Yeah. WTF was up with that? So much of the appeal of The Mask of Zorro was the sexual frisson between Antonio Banderas & Catherine Zeta-Jones and that was completely missing from the sequel! :(
 
If you're ashamed of comics.

There are different types of comics and many of the best Batman comics are pretty restrained and grounded-in-reality. TDK took direct inspiration from the Joker's debut story and The Killing Joke.

However, ...

There's little wonder the Nolan Bat-films were not only phenomenally successful, but--almost inarguably--the most acclaimed of any superhero film of this century: they spoke to a world audience that wanted to see Batman be Batman. Not a clown (most of the 1966 TV series after season one), or a foam-covered misfit (the Burton/Schumacher films), and be as formidable and striking as he was long before Miller, whether in his earliest, Golden Age stories, or the dramatic resurgence of the late 1960s, where Frank Robbins & Irv Novick and subsequently Denny O'Neill & Neal Adams--forcefully reminded the world that Batman was indeed a grim champion that had to face as many real word type threats (e.g. organized crime, corrupt politicians, etc.) as the usual fantasy threats. That's nothing new to Batman as a character, contrary to the thankfully minor accusations against the plots of the Nolan films.

That made Batman a must-read character, which more "contemporary" writers (e.g., Loeb and Moore) zeroed in on and built on, which (ultimately) served as the right inspiration for Nolan's unparalleled work. TDK was the natural, evolutionary step in taking the comic book film out of the realm its--unfortunately--returned to (more often than not): easily-disposed Power Rangers fantasies that barely have a lasting, creative/memory effect a full 24 hours after watching it, In TDK and the entire Nolan series, there was not doubt Batman had the traits of his greatest interpretations from print, which was an perfect marriage to the film of this era, without compromising the power of Batman (and his supporting characters) as one of the most thrilling, unique modern age myths.

I don't think the Joker at all felt like real-world and so the film overall didn't. And Batman deciding to take the blame for killings he didn't do, completely sacrifice his reputation, that's the only way he can win if that's a win at all, feels a little like opposite of power fantasy, maybe masochistic/powerlessness fantasy, that feel a little too much like extreme-different for the sake of extreme-different.
 
Yeah. WTF was up with that? So much of the appeal of The Mask of Zorro was the sexual frisson between Antonio Banderas & Catherine Zeta-Jones and that was completely missing from the sequel! :(
They did have some flirtatious banter, what with the awkward borrowed plot from Notorious (which had already been relatively recently stolen in Mission: Impossible II), but not putting Zeta-Jones in a "Zorra" outfit was a major missed opportunity.

That said, any Mask of Zorro sequel must have been hard as hell to write. How can you possibly top a movie that utterly ruins the original Zorro's life, throws him in jail for 20 years, and then kills him off while introducing a new Zorro, all in the comparatively quiet 1840s Mexican California, especially when Mask already heavily foreshadowed the Gold Rush? Splitting Alejandro and Elena up and featuring an anachronistic proto-Confederacy and Transcontinental Railroad were iffy decisions at best, but I can see at least part of the reasoning behind them... (BTW, the correct answer was Zorro vs. a clan of aristocratic werewolves.)
 
There are different types of comics and many of the best Batman comics are pretty restrained and grounded-in-reality. TDK took direct inspiration from the Joker's debut story and The Killing Joke.

True; from his early Golden Age appearances to the return of Batman's true essence in the late 1960s, it was the grounded stories that captured the attention and celebration from readers, not his crossovers with other superheroes (who were lighter in tone) or adventures with the Justice League. Perhaps the most "out there" storyline that was accepted in this period was the running Man Bat story (beginning in 1970), and that's only due to the Kirk Langstrom character was played as a sympathetic / tragic figure and not some "wee! look at this!" of the month.
 
I really enjoyed TDK. But I think I am the only one who prefers The Dark Knight Rises over TDK. Also, my favorite Joker is from Tim Burton's Batman.
 
I really enjoyed TDK. But I think I am the only one who prefers The Dark Knight Rises over TDK. Also, my favorite Joker is from Tim Burton's Batman.

You are not. I prefer TDKR. I find it way more entertaining than it's predecessor, which I found to be quite slow and bordering on pretentious at times. It's still a great film but I think it's overrated.
 
I actually like Begins more but that's only because I love origin stories, it felt more like a comic book movie and I find it easier to rewatch. TDK is by far a superior movie when you judge it on a technical level and Heath was fucking outstanding in it but for some reason I always place Begins a little ahead of TDK.
 
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