Oh Mojo ! !! You're being mean xD
Can't you just tell me who the freaking Doctor is ? ?
What would Picard do?
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Can't you just tell me who the freaking Doctor is ? ?
The Federation is apparently against the Death Penalty, but nobody stopped Data from deactivating Lore - who proudly admitted his heinous crimes. What would they do, abandon him just so he gets picked up again by some random shop? Lock him up in a cell and wait for someone to mistake him as Data? Overclock him and let
? The due process argument is ultimately interesting, but without appropriate punishment and rehabilitation, which TNG didn't want to discuss because it's otherwise a magical utopia la-la-land where the only thing missing are unicorns puking rainbows from all that synthahol. Actually, it be more fun of Lore had a built-in replicator and puked synthahol and be the ultimate party boy... Moriarity is a more interesting case because he a computer program stuck in a box - before being tricked into being put into a smaller box and will undoubtedly realize that at some point - just how many virtual boxes are in the main box, the magical technobabble about storage and operating spaces was conclusively finite. So when he does, it'll all be contrary to the saccharine ending to that sequel episode - the same one that apparently forgot how he had the civilized English hawts for Dr. Pulaski in "Elementary, Dear Data". (Yes, he's chatting up his countess in the sequel. As if the previous episode never happened.)
Or despite all the drama and claims of sentience, the humans still forget that while remembering they're dealing with computers. "Clues" only solidifies the fact. The writers had forgotten if nobody else, and Picard wasn't going to jump out of the word processing software to remind them of how "Measure of a Man" was based on emotional tweaking over fact. Or, best case scenario, allowing Data to choose whether or not to be disassembled by Maddox's hands but nothing more. (But, yeah, 20th century writers trying to think how 24th century people would act and remembering every nuance in every episode as strict continuity isn't going to be easy. And eventually becomes too limiting, which also explains every time a TV show breaks continuity in a big and knowing way...)
But due process? TNG espouses it except for when it's inconvenient, just like most TV shows when they get wrapped up in a dramatic tangle or have to end the episode in a hurry. Janeway is probably in good company in that regard and, if nothing else, rules out that particular criticism of VOY.
lol oh dear, he's showing you pictures of the Doctor, from Star Trek Voyager!Oh Mojo ! !! You're being mean xD
Can't you just tell me who the freaking Doctor is ? ?
I don't clearly remember that episode, but I do know Captain Picard was very good about letting his crew choose their own solutions, he almost never forced something on someone, even when he thought it's best for his ship. Like you remember in "The Enemy", he let Worf make his own choice about being a donor, even though he really wanted to make sure that Romulan lived? And he would've let Worf have Will kill him in Ethics, and there are so many times he allowed Data quite a lot of leeway in solving his problems. I feel whatever the Doctor felt was best, Captain Picard would've supported him.
Oh my...Ggrrrr @Mojochi !!
Thanks Mary ! What does the Doctor have to do in the conversation ? I'm puzzled.
Oh my...Ggrrrr @Mojochi !!
Thanks Mary ! What does the Doctor have to do in the conversation ? I'm puzzled.
The topic deals with a dilemma the Voyager crew faced with their holographic EMH doctor, who by all reconning, is a sentient AI, & which the captain solved by just resetting him, in part, & we're in here comparing how Picard might've dealt with the same issue
Oooh now I get it ! Makes me want to watch VOY ! !
Voyager's flight deck (and flight deck doors) do use Tardis technology.
Picard obviously considers Data to be a real person, would Picard feel the same about the Doctor? Picard did once order a reset of the Enterprise's main computer, so resetting a computer program (the Doctor) might be something Picard wouldn't have a problem doing.
Oh I've been there, just checked some painting I did yesterday and the finish is ^
Except if the program is sentient. Picard didn't reset the holodeck program when Moriarty was 'born', at least not before making sure Moriarty was paused and saved.
What makes this issue trickier, is that Voyager's EMH had something of a meltdown, a morality crisis, where he'd chose to save one life over another, & it plagued him to the point of system failure. The crew faced him possibly crashing or instead choosing to wipe his memory of it (Which they did & he finds out)
After, they let him work through it organically, but in the initial moment, having never encountered something like this with an AI, (& worrying that they might lose their ship's doctor) they made a precarious call to wipe him, thinking they might be doing what's best for him & them
Ultimately, it's the kind of logical & ethical dilemma that Kirk use to deliberately look for in beings like Nomad, so he could intentionally crash them lol
But it's got me thinking, it also isn't too far off from Data's dilemma with losing to Kolrami in Strategema. It caused the same kind of glitch that prevented him from moving forward, because he couldn't get past having lost, whilst also having done everything correctly
That final exchange he has with Picard, where Picard tells him that "it is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose" Is exactly the kind of thing I think Picard would've come to with the EMH. Ultimately, life throws you things you can't account for, and even the most perfect of us sometimes end up doing damage.
I like to think that were Data to have his glitch over something more substantial than a board game loss, (Like life & death) Picard would've done similarly, & he wouldn't have tried to purge Data of it, but instead try to appeal to him as a living being. That's the problem with the EMH. Holograms aren't really getting the kind of respect a sentient being is accorded, whereas Picard & crew very much tried to do so with Data, & had Data been a hologram instead of android, I really think Picard would have enough respect for him to try to let him sort it out, & not just wipe him
However, when you factor in the fact that it's their only doctor, you have to weigh whether you can afford letting him crash in the attempt, & thereby jeopardize the crew's well being. So there is that hurdle to consider
^Okay, that's definitely a very difficult situation indeed. So I'm not sure there's a 'good' solution in such a situation. I'd need to watch said VOY episode in order to have a more detailed opinion, if someone could give me the season and number, please.
But I get your analogy about the Stratagemma game in Peak Performance. Failing to solve a problem when everything was done correctly, or going through decisions that will cause internal conflicts, are situations that put AIs' logic under pressure - hence Data's 'glitchy' obsessional checks after he lost the Stratagemma game. Real life heuristic algorithms that are developped nowadays can experience inadequate responses as well (such as infinite loops) when facing paradox.
But I get your analogy about the Stratagemma game in Peak Performance. Failing to solve a problem when everything was done correctly, or going through decisions that will cause internal conflicts, are situations that put AIs' logic under pressure - hence Data's 'glitchy' obsessional checks after he lost the Stratagemma game. Real life heuristic algorithms that are developped nowadays can experience inadequate responses as well (such as infinite loops) when facing paradox.
^Latent Image, season 5, ep. 11. (episode 105 in overall numbering).
Season 5 episode 11 "Latent Image".
The captain herself seems a little off-putting in the beginning, with how cold & unsympathetic she comes off, but the situation itself plays out well enough. I'm not sure that if I was under the demand of NEEDING that EMH to be functional, I'd be willing to let it crash from its own crisis meltdown. If that weren't a factor, then yes, we'd want to believe we'd be willing to let it deal with it organically. Theirs is a big risk though
I'd actually liked to have seen a brief treatment of a Lore trail. With him sparring with the judge and taunting him with his contempt for humans.The Federation is apparently against the Death Penalty, but nobody stopped Data from deactivating Lore - who proudly admitted his heinous crimes. What would they do, abandon him just so he gets picked up again by some random shop? Lock him up in a cell and wait for someone to mistake him as Data? Overclock him and letelectromigrationpositimigration fry his processing units sooner, since if Lore wasn't obeying Asimov's three laws he shouldn't be limited by the fictional concept of positronics entirely
Lore totally deserves to be prosecuted for what he did. It's very frustrating that he just ends up being dismantled, especially since it's pretty illogical that Picard stood for Data's rights but didn't raise an eyebrow about his brother's fate.
Had his sentence been dismantlement, he should at least has been through a legal procedure for his crimes.
Had his sentence been dismantlement, he should at least has been through a legal procedure for his crimes.
When is it said he's dismantled? He gets deactivated. Data suggests that they ought to disassemble him, but do they ever really? & why should we assume that disassembly is such a cruel & unusual punishment? Hell, Data himself gets deactivated & partially disassembled in the middle of his own civil rights hearing, & that's just one example. Consider how they found Lore. They found him disassembled, & clearly they've done nothing but suffer a hefty toll for ever reassembling him, a decision that was only pursued because Data wanted to. Data is the only reason Lore was ever reassembled & returned to consciousness at all.
Besides, Lore is not a federation citizen. The UFP would almost certainly involve the governing bodies representative of individuals from other cultures, who have commited heinous crimes against them, like when Damon Bok tries to threaten Picard & Jason Vigo, they contact the Ferengi. Lore is of a culture that really only has one other member, Data. Data IS the authority, on how to administer punishment to an android, & imho the punishment was not anything so cruel as to destroy him, but merely to render him as nonthreatening as possible, sort of like when they found him to begin with
I never got any impression really his deactivation would be permanent even? Like Lore was so badly damaged, he might have needed to be deactivated for his own safety while he can be fixed and things, and we don't see every single thing that goes on, right? How do we know he wasn't sent to Starfleet or something to try to help him, maybe one day when their knowledge is greater he can be repaired and rehabilitated, I imagine that's what Data would ultimately want for his brother.
I always preferred to think that this is how it went.
@Marynator & @Longinus …. Yup
His deactivation & disassembly is very likely contingent on his threat level, based on what Data says. I seriously doubt that Data intended to never again do something to rectify the failings of the only other example of his kind (At that point). Certainly Soong wouldn't have wanted that. He thought Lore had been destroyed, & claimed that if he'd known, he would've continued working to improve Lore himself. I can completely believe that the guy who is personally housing his failing daughter wouldn't totally give up on his flawed brother completely
His deactivation & disassembly is very likely contingent on his threat level, based on what Data says. I seriously doubt that Data intended to never again do something to rectify the failings of the only other example of his kind (At that point). Certainly Soong wouldn't have wanted that. He thought Lore had been destroyed, & claimed that if he'd known, he would've continued working to improve Lore himself. I can completely believe that the guy who is personally housing his failing daughter wouldn't totally give up on his flawed brother completely
The fact that Lore doesn't feature again suggests he was shelved - permanently. Or perhaps he went the way of Lal when they tried to fix him but couldn't revive him. Lore's problems are very fundamental and everybody except Soong himself but including Data can't get a full handle on the positronic brain business.
Lore was dismantled because it was a tidy and intuitive way to end a fairly silly brace of episodes, lol. On-screen, Lore has proven incorrigible and was essentially dismantled under a shoot to kill "too hot to handle" rationale. Lore had sold out his home planet and conspired with the borg who, at least from the pov of command, were the same crew that were culpable for Wolf 359 and had almost destroyed earth. And given Data's abilities in Brothers to completely hoodwink a starship. Lore just had to be neutralised.
Lore was dismantled because it was a tidy and intuitive way to end a fairly silly brace of episodes, lol. On-screen, Lore has proven incorrigible and was essentially dismantled under a shoot to kill "too hot to handle" rationale. Lore had sold out his home planet and conspired with the borg who, at least from the pov of command, were the same crew that were culpable for Wolf 359 and had almost destroyed earth. And given Data's abilities in Brothers to completely hoodwink a starship. Lore just had to be neutralised.
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