Yet another layer to TWOK

[SpyOne]

I recently shared with my brother the fact that Wrath of Khan was at some point in the process titled The Undiscovered Country.
He said something noncommittal about how that would have been a good title too, and I said it would have been a terrible title since the quote is about the future and the movie isn't.
Then we both observed that for both Khan and Kirk it's really about the past.
And then I said, "One of them hasn't changed and the other one wishes he hadn't."
And it struck us both that Kirk and Khan are opposites on that. Khan is still the man he was fifteen years ago, filled with blinding anger at Kirk, while Kirk misses the person he was and struggles to figure out who to be now.

 

[Lance]

I recently shared with my brother the fact that Wrath of Khan was at some point in the process titled The Undiscovered Country.
He said something noncommittal about how that would have been a good title too, and I said it would have been a terrible title since the quote is about the future and the movie isn't.

Actually, "the undiscovered country" is a quote from Shakespeare and refers to death, or more particularly to the afterlife (don't believe STVI, it was never 'the future'). Hence, with Spock dying in the movie, it would have been a *very* appropriate title.

But that the dread of something after death, the undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveler returns.

 

[SpyOne]

You're right. Sadly I remember Star Trek 6 better than I remember Hamlet.

I still think it's a bad title for TWOK, which was about growing old far more than it was about death.
Maybe for the next film, though, which deals with grieving for Spock and then with his return from death.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Actually, "the undiscovered country" is a quote from Shakespeare and refers to death, or more particularly to the afterlife (don't believe STVI, it was never 'the future'). Hence, with Spock dying in the movie, it would have been a *very* appropriate title.

Not just Spock's demise -- the whole movie is about midlife crisis and the fear of impending death.

 

[GNDN18]

Star Trek II: On Golden Galaxy

 

[2takesfrakes]

TWoK was also previously entitled, at one point: The Vengeance of Khan. It doesn't sound that terrible, but that one extra syllable really does drag it out, like we got the idea, before we got to the end of the sentence, kind of a thing. But until that one syllabled word was found, "Vengeance" it was:

A poster was fabricated with the title ...
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/e3/82/67e38240475045e0a79740ae00daa240.jpg

Toys even had it ...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDjejKRWgAE-8mO.jpg

As to Kirk's wanting to be who he was, I don't know that's the case, exactly. He's not in a second childhood, or anything. He doesn't want to grow old, though, that much is clear. He's not shown driving fast cars and trying to pick up young women, or hanging by the bar at clubs, waiting for them to approach. He's more bored, than anything, actually. We see his apartment's many evidences that he's got too much free time on his hands. And when he meets Carol again, it's clear that it's regrets over the past he's having, more than a desire to reclaim it. I don't think he misses who he was, so much as he's just not digging the simple fact that being an Admiral isn't everything it's cracked up to be.

It does have its privileges, though, as he'd evoked them in The Motion Picture, when he stole Deckard's command. In that movie, though, I do believe Kirk missed who he was, before. That was his motivation, then, simply wanting to turn back time and Decker even mentions that he'd spoken of wanting his own command again, long before this. TWoK, however, doesn't present these motivating factors. Kirk's even handed Spock's command by the Vulcan himself and he, initially, refuses. Kirk's at an impasse in his life, yes, but he's not looking to be young, again. That ends up being the effect the movie has on him, inwardly, but for reasons other than reliving Glory Days. Because of Spock's death, Kirk just realises that it's pretty damn sweet to be alive, after all ... even if it's as an old fusspot.

 

[Lance]

You're right. Sadly I remember Star Trek 6 better than I remember Hamlet.

I still think it's a bad title for TWOK, which was about growing old far more than it was about death.
Maybe for the next film, though, which deals with grieving for Spock and then with his return from death.

I do agree actually In a great many ways STIII is all about Hamlet's "undiscovered country", although of course it's a bourn from which Mister Spock does return

 

[Guy Gardener]

At the end of The Space Seed, Kirk waxes on about what a wonderful world Khan is going to make out of ceti alpha 5, in the future.

Oh, dear.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Actually, "the undiscovered country" is a quote from Shakespeare and refers to death, or more particularly to the afterlife (don't believe STVI, it was never 'the future'). Hence, with Spock dying in the movie, it would have been a *very* appropriate title.

But that the dread of something after death, the undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveler returns.

always thought the line 'from whose bourn no traveler returns' sounds alittle like 'where no man has gone before'

 

[Lance]

At the end of The Space Seed, Kirk waxes on about what a wonderful world Khan is going to make out of ceti alpha 5, in the future.

Oh, dear.

"It's better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven", so Khan quoted John Milton at the end of that episode.

Khan ended up in hell. And wasn't very happy about it. His paradise was lost.

 

[XCV330]

"It's better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven", so Khan quoted John Milton at the end of that episode.

Khan ended up in hell. And wasn't very happy about it. His paradise was lost.

Sometimes planets just blow up for no adequately explained reason. He should've thought about that before he decided to live on one, again.

 

[SpyOne]

As to Kirk's wanting to be who he was, I don't know that's the case, exactly. He's not in a second childhood, or anything. He doesn't want to grow old, though, that much is clear. He's not shown driving fast cars and trying to pick up young women, or hanging by the bar at clubs, waiting for them to approach.

I didn't say he wanted to be the person he was, and I never suggested he was acting as if he still was that person. I said he missed that person.
He's moved well past denial and into depression: he's very aware that he isn't that person anymore. And that makes him sad.

And with Carol, I agree it wasn't a desire to reclaim the past, but I'm not sure it was regret either. He remembers how happy they were when they were together, .... but that's the past.

A theme that runs through most of the movies is that, although he is reluctant to say so out loud, Jim Kirk should never have accepted promotion beyond Captain.
All he's ever wanted to be is a Captain, and he has absolutely no plan for what to do after that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seti Alpha 6 popping like that reaks of time travel.

That would be a superb position to split the timeline, if Khan got lose and took over the universe.

 

[gottacook]

Fleet admirals, although they are my putative superiors, are not paragons. Three spelling errors in only two sentences! And yet, sir, you do spell Khan correctly...

 

[XCV330]

Seti Alpha 6 popping like that reaks of time travel.

That would be a superb position to split the timeline, if Khan got lose and took over the universe.

Or Khan in a failed attempt to get off Ceti Alpha V with his super intellect but lack of experience, blew it up and just blamed Kirk for not noticing. (I like to think Kirk did notice and put it in file 13 "ah.. screw it. Terrell can handle it") Maybe if they do this Khan miniseries, it will be explained.

 

[mos6507]

always thought the line 'from whose bourn no traveler returns' sounds alittle like 'where no man has gone before'

Trek has always been attached to classic literature/drama, especially in the episode title department.

 

[ItIsGreen]

A poster was fabricated with the title ...
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/e3/82/67e38240475045e0a79740ae00daa240.jpg

I want that poster.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I must be Frank & Ernest: I'm not entirely sure that it's "real." It's attributed to Bob Peak whose work is significantly better than that. If you look at his VOYAGE HOME poster where it's just the words and planet Earth, the poster is very dynamic and interesting. This looks like it may be a facsimile, sir ...

 

[Greg Cox]

Trek has always been attached to classic literature/drama, especially in the episode title department.

Yep. TOS alone raided Shakespeare for at least four titles:

Dagger of the Mind (from MACBETH)
By Any Other Name (ROMEO AND JULIET)
Conscience of the King (HAMLET)
All Our Yesterdays (MACBETH again)

And TAS mined the Bard as well:

How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth (from KING LEAR)

 

[Lance]

I have a theory that TOS's links to classic literature are, I think, maybe generational. The writers and producers of the original series, apart from often being established authors themselves rather than necessarily being writers for TV, were also of a generation that grew up *before* television. The writers from the Next Generation era onwards were often just as influenced by the stories of their own childhood, which *included* television (of course, the original Star Trek itself becoming one of the sources). Nick Meyer, although relatively young when he directed TWOK, was an avid reader of the classics, so in some ways was a perfect fit for creating a movie featuring those original characters. He bought modern sensibilities to it while still respecting the lineage and sources that made the original show as rich in texture as it was.

I have no doubt Meyer was overjoyed to watch "Space Seed" and be working with a villain character who quotes classic literature.

Incidentally, I do think "The Undiscovered Country" is a suitable title for the sixth movie too. If the phrase is to refer to 'life after death', then the movie uses life after death as an allegory for the future: the characters continually question what their lives post-Praxis, post-Peace will actually be like, and the conspirators themselves fear that this particular 'undiscovered country' will not be one from which they will return, but instead, that they will be left behind...