James Duff joins Discovery Season 2 as co-showrunner.

[Hythlodeus]

so, which one of them is James?

 

[Christopher]

As far as I know, Fuller was the one who came up with the idea of Lorca being from the MU, making this statement inaccurate.

No -- while Fuller always intended the Mirror Universe to be featured during the season, the decision to have Lorca come from there came later.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/star-trek-discovery-trumpism-lorca?utm_term=.ugeLVV16l#.cfJZwwdRy

Harberts explained that the writers knew from the start, when creator Bryan Fuller was first planning out the show's serialized storyline, that the inaugural season of Discovery would end up in the Mirror Universe. (Fuller eventually left the show due to creative differences with CBS, elevating Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg to showrunner status.) But at first, the writers planned for Lorca to be a hawkish captain given a chance to shine thanks to the Federation's war with the Klingon Empire. It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he'd secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.

 

[Trajet]

I looked James Duff up. He's a billionaire. An openly gay billionaire.

James Duff the TV producer isn't a billionaire, but he is the creator of TNT's The Closer (apparently one of basic cable's most successful dramas of all time) and its continuation/spin-off Major Crimes.

You're getting him confused with James Duff, a Mississippi businessman, and co-owner of Southern Tire Mart and Frozen Food Express.

 

[eschaton]

Yes, I did already acknowledge those changes. My point is that the basic idea of spending the whole season on the Klingon war was kept, even though the specifics were refined. The term "arc" refers to the overall storyline, not every exact step along the way. If they'd wanted, they could've decided to wrap up the war sooner and spent the rest of the season on something else; arguably that's kind of what they did do with the massive Mirror Universe arc in the second half, so it wouldn't have been much of a stretch beyond that to wrap up the whole war in episode 9 and do something different for the finale. But they still stuck with the original plan to continue the war arc until the end of the year, keeping the basic idea even while changing the details.

I feel like we're arguing past one another here. My basic point is basically that it may be the case that if you wrote down all of the elements of Fuller's planned arc past the second episode which were kept in place after he left the show, you might have a paragraph or two of text at most. That's pretty thin gruel.

That doesn't follow at all. First off, Kurtzman brought in Duff to help him run the room. Kurtzman is the main showrunner at this point. Second, breaking the scripts is just the very start of the process, like outlining a novel. The whole staff is involved in every stage of the writing from beginning to end. Scripts are assigned to individual writers, but the whole staff is then involved in the rewriting process.

The point remains that even if the Berg/Harberts script outlines remain in force, they might not be much more than a few lines of text, meaning there's a lot of places where the whole "feel" of the season could change mid season.

In addition, we know that in Season 1, at least two episodes were basically added on the fly in the middle of production - the Mudd timeloop episode and the Pahvo one. Therefore it's still entirely possible that the end run of Season 2 could be tweaked considerably from what Berg/Harberts had in mind (presuming their meltdown wasn't in part due to being creatively spent).

But it would be more expensive to throw everything out and start from scratch than it would be just to find a more economical way of telling the same stories they'd already been making plans to tell. Again, even if they change the specifics, the broad strokes of the story arc for the back half of the season will probably remain, and it'll probably end up in basically the same place as originally planned even if the path to get there is different.

It's been said that writing series television is like building a car while it's racing downhill, or trying to fix a runaway train. You don't have the luxury to stop everything, do a rethink from scratch, and start over. You have to do everything on the fly, on a time limit, and it's hard to change direction once you're underway.

We know they are taking a "planned production hiatus" at the moment. Whether or not this was actually planned from the beginning we cannot say of course, but the timing does seem a bit suspect, and we know that public statements from the studios are always only half the story, with much of it not coming out until years later. Regardless, since production is on hiatus for a bit, there is time to work on the car with it not racing downhill - at least for the next little bit.

 

[Christopher]

I feel like we're arguing past one another here. My basic point is basically that it may be the case that if you wrote down all of the elements of Fuller's planned arc past the second episode which were kept in place after he left the show, you might have a paragraph or two of text at most. That's pretty thin gruel.

That's the specifics. I'm talking about the overall storyline of the season, the Klingon war arc. They didn't wrap up the war early and start all over with something else. They stuck with the original plan for the season and just changed how they told the story of the Klingon war.

And that was with a showrunner who left very close to the beginning of the season, early enough that his successors had to write the final version of episode 2 themselves. In this case, the change in showrunners happened much later in the season. So it's very unlikely that they'd completely ditch Berg & Harberts's story arc and suddenly start doing a bunch of TOS-style episodic stories or something. It's way too late in the process for the season plans to be completely tossed out, even if it were remotely plausible that a modern streaming series would abandon serialization. The details will naturally change -- the details usually change in the rewrite process, whether or not there are staff changes -- but the overall plan is not going to be abruptly abandoned.

The point remains that even if the Berg/Harberts script outlines remain in force, they might not be much more than a few lines of text, meaning there's a lot of places where the whole "feel" of the season could change mid season.

As I said, it takes maybe 2-3 months to make a single episode of a weekly show, so the episodes are essentially written in parallel, not in series. So whenever the showrunners are let go, there will be a number of unfilmed scripts and outlines that were written by them or under their supervision and approval. So their influence on subsequent episodes will wane gradually, not all at once. I've seen a number of shows with midseason showrunner changes, and while there is sometimes a detectable change in tone, it always takes time to kick in. In cases where showrunners are let go halfway through the season, it's not until the last few episodes of the season that their influence fades for good. And that's with older shows with seasons of 22 or more episodes. DSC season 2 has only 13 episodes, and Berg & Harberts were let go about halfway through. So it's probable that every remaining episode in the season was at least in outline stage when they left.

We know they are taking a "planned production hiatus" at the moment. Whether or not this was actually planned from the beginning we cannot say of course, but the timing does seem a bit suspect, and we know that public statements from the studios are always only half the story, with much of it not coming out until years later. Regardless, since production is on hiatus for a bit, there is time to work on the car with it not racing downhill - at least for the next little bit.

Okay, theoretically. But we know they were let go because of budget overruns and staff mistreatment, not because of anything to do with their creative choices. So there's no reason to believe that there would've been any dissatisfaction with their creative choices or any desire to change course. Especially since the new showrunner, Alex Kurtzman, was the old showrunners' boss. They couldn't do anything he didn't sign off on. So whatever they were doing, he was presumably okay with it.

If they are pausing to rework their plans, I'd imagine it's in order to figure out how to cope with the budget overruns, how to streamline their plans for the back half of the season and find less expensive ways to tell the stories they want to tell. It doesn't mean they don't want to tell those stories at all, it just means they have to tell them in a different way.

 

[eschaton]

That's the specifics. I'm talking about the overall storyline of the season, the Klingon war arc. They didn't wrap up the war early and start all over with something else. They stuck with the original plan for the season and just changed how they told the story of the Klingon war.

I'm sorry, but "Burnham causes Klingon War, gets resolved in last episode" is a pretty thin plot outline. We have no idea if the last episode wrapped up in any way similarly to what Fuller intended. Maybe he meant for the Federation to lose the war, for example, and for Discovery to reset time somehow and/or skip into another universe. Hell, we don't even know if he came up with the idea for the spore drive, and the plot of the season would have been unrecognizable without it.

And that was with a showrunner who left very close to the beginning of the season, early enough that his successors had to write the final version of episode 2 themselves. In this case, the change in showrunners happened much later in the season. So it's very unlikely that they'd completely ditch Berg & Harberts's story arc and suddenly start doing a bunch of TOS-style episodic stories or something. It's way too late in the process for the season plans to be completely tossed out, even if it were remotely plausible that a modern streaming series would abandon serialization. The details will naturally change -- the details usually change in the rewrite process, whether or not there are staff changes -- but the overall plan is not going to be abruptly abandoned.

I agree that if a decent plan was laid out - one that CBS had greenlit - that they will go ahead with it - particularly if the physical effects guys have already started making the props.

But I still do feel it's likely there's things we haven't heard yet. Many forum members have read the 50-year mission books, and realize there was tons of behind the scenes drama related to Trek (both inside and outside of the writers room) which we didn't hear about until years afterward. If Harberts was freaking out on staff writers and screaming, he was probably under stress. If he was under stress, it was likely because they either weren't hitting their deadlines or he thought the quality of the work wasn't up to skiff.

As I said, it takes maybe 2-3 months to make a single episode of a weekly show, so the episodes are essentially written in parallel, not in series. So whenever the showrunners are let go, there will be a number of unfilmed scripts and outlines that were written by them or under their supervision and approval. So their influence on subsequent episodes will wane gradually, not all at once. I've seen a number of shows with midseason showrunner changes, and while there is sometimes a detectable change in tone, it always takes time to kick in. In cases where showrunners are let go halfway through the season, it's not until the last few episodes of the season that their influence fades for good. And that's with older shows with seasons of 22 or more episodes. DSC season 2 has only 13 episodes, and Berg & Harberts were let go about halfway through. So it's probable that every remaining episode in the season was at least in outline stage when they left.

I'm not disagreeing here. But you can pull a one-paragraph outline in dozens of different directions. Those outlines will offer very little guidance in terms of making the stories - probably an order of magnitude less than the demands of CBS in regards to things like budgeting.

Okay, theoretically. But we know they were let go because of budget overruns and staff mistreatment, not because of anything to do with their creative choices. So there's no reason to believe that there would've been any dissatisfaction with their creative choices or any desire to change course. Especially since the new showrunner, Alex Kurtzman, was the old showrunners' boss. They couldn't do anything he didn't sign off on. So whatever they were doing, he was presumably okay with it.

Maybe. Again, we just don't know, since all we have heard is the studio's official statement, and likely everyone involved is still covered by NDAs at the moment. I will say I don't think that if they were partially fired because their product sucked, we would be told. After all, why would the studio publicly admit they think the first six episodes of the second season suck?

If they are pausing to rework their plans, I'd imagine it's in order to figure out how to cope with the budget overruns, how to streamline their plans for the back half of the season and find less expensive ways to tell the stories they want to tell. It doesn't mean they don't want to tell those stories at all, it just means they have to tell them in a different way.

We will see in 2019.

 

[Mudd]

If the showrunners were dumped, the direction of the show will change.

 

[Christopher]

I'm sorry, but "Burnham causes Klingon War, gets resolved in last episode" is a pretty thin plot outline.

I think you're losing track of the basic topic here. What I'm specifically responding to is the suggestion made above that the "change" in showrunners would somehow lead to Berg & Harberts's plans for the season being entirely abandoned and the show starting from scratch. I have never at any point been saying that the specifics wouldn't change, since obviously they would. What I have been saying is that they would not throw everything out and start from scratch. It's way too late for that to happen, and there's no reason to think that Kurtzman would want to do that, since his approval would've been needed for whatever B&H decided. The most likely scenario is that the same overall story will be told, just not in the exact same way.

But I still do feel it's likely there's things we haven't heard yet. Many forum members have read the 50-year mission books, and realize there was tons of behind the scenes drama related to Trek (both inside and outside of the writers room) which we didn't hear about until years afterward. If Harberts was freaking out on staff writers and screaming, he was probably under stress. If he was under stress, it was likely because they either weren't hitting their deadlines or he thought the quality of the work wasn't up to skiff.

You're making a hell of a lot of ad hoc assumptions there in order to force the conclusion you want. There are countless reasons why a producer might be under stress, many of which would have nothing to do with the creative process, because producers are human beings who have lives beyond their jobs. Remember, Andrew Kreisberg was fired from the Arrowverse shows for sexual harassment. The star of the Lethal Weapon TV series was fired for being a jerk to his cast members. Roseanne Barr was fired for being an awful, racist person. And then there's Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, and all the rest. A lot of people in power in Hollywood have built or capitalized on a climate of abuse, whether sexual or otherwise, toward those under their influence, and people are finally starting to stand up and protest that and bring about changes. People who have gotten away with being abusive for years are no longer getting away with it. I don't know whether Berg & Harberts have been abusive toward their staffs on prior shows or not, but in the current climate, it is utterly disingenuous to assert that script or budget problems are the only conceivable reason for a producer to be abusive.

Yes, there are definitely plenty of things we haven't heard, but that's exactly why we shouldn't jump to any conclusions. Lack of information is not a reason to make something up and assume it's true; it's a reason to admit that we just don't know and leave it at that.

Maybe. Again, we just don't know, since all we have heard is the studio's official statement, and likely everyone involved is still covered by NDAs at the moment. I will say I don't think that if they were partially fired because their product sucked, we would be told. After all, why would the studio publicly admit they think the first six episodes of the second season suck?

You're still begging the question -- starting with the conclusion you want and concocting arguments to support it. It's pure circular reasoning. "You can't disprove it" doesn't come remotely close to proving it.

 

[eschaton]

I think you're losing track of the basic topic here. What I'm specifically responding to is the suggestion made above that the "change" in showrunners would somehow lead to Berg & Harberts's plans for the season being entirely abandoned and the show starting from scratch. I have never at any point been saying that the specifics wouldn't change, since obviously they would. What I have been saying is that they would not throw everything out and start from scratch. It's way too late for that to happen, and there's no reason to think that Kurtzman would want to do that, since his approval would've been needed for whatever B&H decided. The most likely scenario is that the same overall story will be told, just not in the exact same way.

Uhh, what I originally said, on my first post in this thread was:

Is this a sign that Kurtzman think's it's a good idea to dial back the serialization level of Discovery a bit?

Notice the "a bit" there? I never said that if a season-long arc existed it should be, or will be, thrown in the trash. I said they might tweak the show a bit to put the arc a bit more on the back burner, as it was during much of Act 1 of the past season. Certainly when the shows were not so heavily overplotted there was more time to let the characters have some natural interactions like teeth brushing and talking about burritos.

 

[Christopher]

Uhh, what I originally said, on my first post in this thread was:

I was responding to what you said in a later post:

But if no one really has a solid idea what overarching story they want to tell in DIS, it's better to focus on smaller-bore stuff and character dynamics until a good hook presents itself.

The point is, the overarching story was already settled on months ago and it would be way too late to start over midseason. So the "if" you posited in that sentence makes no sense as a premise. Berg & Harberts, working for Kurtzman's production company, came up with a season arc that Kurtzman approved. Halfway through the 13-episode season, B&H were fired and Kurtzman took the reins directly to finish out the back half. Then he hired someone else to fill the team vacancy and assist him in that role. There's no conceivable reason to expect that to be a major change rather than just an incremental shift. Especially since the season's short enough that probably every remaining episode has already been outlined if not scripted.

I said they might tweak the show a bit to put the arc a bit more on the back burner, as it was during much of Act 1 of the past season. Certainly when the shows were not so heavily overplotted there was more time to let the characters have some natural interactions like teeth brushing and talking about burritos.

Every word of that sentence is pure speculation. We know nothing about what the arc or writing style for season 2 will be like at all, so you can't meaningfully talk about putting the arc "a bit more" on the back burner when you have zero basis for comparison whatsoever. For all you know, they were already doing what you want.