'The City on the Edge of Forever'....51 years ago today

[TrickyDickie]

It's implied they only come back if they are successful, otherwise they could just come back then jump back through again, over and over. That's why Kirk says...

GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.
UHURA: Captain, it seems impossible. Even if you were able to find the right date...
SCOTT: Then even finding McCoy would be a miracle.
SPOCK: There is no alternative.
KIRK: Scotty, when you think you've waited long enough. Each of you will have to try it. Even if you fail, at least you'll be alive in some past world somewhere.​

'Successful' is open to interpretation. Preventing Edith Keeler from starting the pacifist movement is the key, not whether she lives or dies. Bringing her into the future would prevent that just as much as her death would. The Guardian was not exactly forthcoming with information. It was geared more toward answering specific questions.

When McCoy changed history, everyone else who had not jumped through with him did not just disappear. That suggests a 'safety field' or something operating in the proximity of the Guardian. In perhaps a more realistic scenario, Kirk would have taken the time to ask more questions, etc. But running time of the episode was a constraint, as was the need to keep the tension and drama high. That stuff interferes with 'logic' all the time in tv and movie storytelling.

 

[Elder Knight]

...
And it just hit me why City is outside my personal Top 10. It's the ease with which McCoy gets off the ship, upon which the entire rest of the plot depends. There are of course all sorts of implausible Enterprise security breaches throughout TOS, but that one just puts up a roadblock for me I can't get past.

I'm not suggesting that McCoy's escape should have been shown, but could have been explained in dialogue. How'd he get past security? Well, he's not only a senior officer and a department head, but he has special privileges to deal with emergencies. When he declares one, we send him to the pre-planned coordinates at once, no questions asked!"

(I do agree that it's a plot loophole. I'm just trying to explain it the best I can.)

 

[Commishsleer]

I've got no problems with the McCoy escape. Although Kirk gave the alert to stop McCoy the crew were also on alert because of the time ripple waves buffeting the ship. I can see why a paranoid McCoy was able to slip past crewman trying to keep the ship in one piece.

 

[Phaser Two]

The exact details of how Kirk, Spock and McCoy return after Edith is killed are unknown to us. Was it immediately after? Did they go back to their room to change into their uniforms, or did the Guardian take care of all that?

That's always bothered me too, though not nearly (as in, not even close to) as much as the ease of McCoy's escape from the ship (which is almost insulting to the viewer).

In terms of how it was written as aired, the episode is somewhat unusual in TOS in that most of the eps (particularly the strongest ones), whether we realize it or not when watching, are very, very tightly plotted. City, on the other hand, works for me more in a metasense, where the impact is the overall story (to say nothing of the amazing acting). It's pretty clear that this is due to Ellison's style and influence.

 

[Phaser Two]

I'm not suggesting that McCoy's escape should have been shown, but could have been explained in dialogue. How'd he get past security? Well, he's not only a senior officer and a department head, but he has special privileges to deal with emergencies. When he declares one, we send him to the pre-planned coordinates at once, no questions asked!"

(I do agree that it's a plot loophole. I'm just trying to explain it the best I can.)

That works and I think your approach would have served better. By far.

I've got no problems with the McCoy escape. Although Kirk gave the alert to stop McCoy the crew were also on alert because of the time ripple waves buffeting the ship. I can see why a paranoid McCoy was able to slip past crewman trying to keep the ship in one piece.

Sure. It's a matter of personal preference, I guess, and I'm genuinely glad it works for you. I think the problem for me is the incompatibility of (1) this amazing, soaring, transcendent story that is considered to be one of TOS' best by many (most) TOS fans and probably #1 by the general population and (2) such a basic plothole that cried out for fixing and was totally key to the remainder of the plot. It just seems as though in the midst of such an amazing piece of writing, they could have taken the time to get McCoy off the ship in more believable fashion. Particularly bothersome to me is that Kyle has his back to the transporter room door and doesn't look up when the door opens. (Someone correct me if I have this wrong - maybe and hopefully I do!)

Also, this choppily edited exchange needed work:

KIRK: Detail, fan out. What is this thing, Mister Spock? It seems to be pulsating with power of some kind. Analysis, please.
SPOCK: Unbelievable, Captain.
KIRK: That's funny.
SPOCK: This single object is the source of all the time displacement.

(emphasis added) Huh? Again, in such a great episode, this sort of thing just stands out like the sorest thumb imaginable.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Spock is seldom incredulous. Momentary tension breaker as Kirk finds the humor in that.

 

[Gavin70]

Which in itself is still pioneering. The dude who invented the 1st catamaran probably hadn't envisioned it being used to settle the islands of the pacific, but some other folks came along & were like "I bet we could" lol

I agree. I think Gene Roddenberry is a lot like Steve Jobs in many respects. Not a lot of original ideas but able to take ideas and make them mainstream.

 

[Khan 2.0]

'Successful' is open to interpretation. Preventing Edith Keeler from starting the pacifist movement is the key, not whether she lives or dies. Bringing her into the future would prevent that just as much as her death would.

Alt ending. Edith after being saved by Bones and then having the whole thing explained to her and that she cant go back with them grabs onto Kirk as he jumps back through the Guardian .'surprise'

 

[Commishsleer]

Alt ending. Edith after being saved by Bones and then having the whole thing explained to her and that she cant go back with them grabs onto Kirk as he jumps back through the Guardian .'surprise'

Imagine what Ellison would have said if they'd change the ending to do that.
It would have really spoiled the whole message of the episode,

 

[Phaser Two]

Spock is seldom incredulous. Momentary tension breaker as Kirk finds the humor in that.

Enh. It's atrocious - again, relative to and in the context of the very, very high quality of the episode - particularly since Spock has no reaction. There's also a weird edit in how Shatner says the line that makes me think something was cut. Maybe one of the script draft gurus here knows.

 

[Phaser Two]

I agree. I think Gene Roddenberry is a lot like Steve Jobs in many respects. Not a lot of original ideas but able to take ideas and make them mainstream.

. . . which is in itself original.

 

[Mojochi]

I doubt it was particularly original. It may well have been a new concept for the majority of the viewing audience but it was a well used trope in science fiction stories well before this. But those were very much a niche audience. Gene Roddenberry understood that and he pillaged a lot of ideas from science fiction stories and presented them to a mass audience for the first time.

Which in itself is still pioneering. The dude who invented the 1st catamaran probably hadn't envisioned it being used to settle the islands of the pacific, but some other folks came along & were like "I bet we could" lol

I agree. I think Gene Roddenberry is a lot like Steve Jobs in many respects. Not a lot of original ideas but able to take ideas and make them mainstream.

. . . which is in itself original.

Postception ​

 

[sasser]

Imagine what Ellison would have said if they'd change the ending to do that.
It would have really spoiled the whole message of the episode,

Maybe the end is different.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Since the mods took down the cut and paste that I did from fanfic, here is a link. Just trying to show that in science fiction there really always are possibilities. Edith could have been vital to the future....if they had gone that way instead of killing her off:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/today-is-forever-what-if-edith-keeler-had-lived.294668/

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

And it just hit me why City is outside my personal Top 10. It's the ease with which McCoy gets off the ship, upon which the entire rest of the plot depends. There are of course all sorts of implausible Enterprise security breaches throughout TOS, but that one just puts up a roadblock for me I can't get past.

Keep in mind that McCoy is more familiar with the ship's workings than any intruder/brig prisoner would be.

Alt ending. Edith after being saved by Bones and then having the whole thing explained to her and that she cant go back with them grabs onto Kirk as he jumps back through the Guardian .'surprise'

The difference between Edith and Gillian being that they can't argue against the logic of having an expert on the whales they went back to retrieve, particularly the one who knows those particular humpback whales better than anyone.

What if Kirk had taken her forward in time, and then she found out her ultimate traffic accident fate and argued she had to die? But dies with a smile on her lips because the world she wished for came (somewhat) true.

 

[TrickyDickie]

If anyone is under the impression that McCoy would not have been able to think rationally in order to do whatever was necessary to make his escape, while under the influence of cordrazine, I don't feel that's a plot hole.

We don't know how cordrazine works.

The human brain is very complex.

So far, they have identified over 80 distinct types of dementia. My father had one of them in which there was a very high level of irrationality and paranoia, but at the very same time in that state he could be highly analytical, crafty, devious, methodical, and even what could be called diabolical in certain instances.

 

[Phaser Two]

Keep in mind that McCoy is more familiar with the ship's workings than any intruder/brig prisoner would be.

Sure - as we learn in The Ultimate Computer, he has "clearance throughout the ship." But they didn't issue a security alert for a random, they issued it for Dr. McCoy. Honestly, it's just really bad as shown - again, relative to the ridiculously high quality of the episode - and they could have fixed it easily with other choices. I really liked the suggestion that it not be shown, if that was the best they could do.

If anyone is under the impression that McCoy would not have been able to think rationally in order to do whatever was necessary to make his escape, while under the influence of cordrazine, I don't feel that's a plot hole.

Nope, not implying that at all, TD. In fact he could have been thinking hyperrationally based on what we saw of the drug; he dopes out (sorry) immediately that he needs to get off the ship, for example, and seems to recall that they're in orbit, avoiding a Triacus Tragedy. But it's the CREW's reaction that bugs me. Kirk and Spock stay on the bridge. No one secures the transporter room and Kyle, though atypically armed (necessary so McCoy can have a phaser later but also perhaps showing the heightened alert) is working with his back to the door and doesn't bother to look up when the unmistakable whoosh occurs. Given that we see a shot of security teams combing the decks (which I did appreciate), it's ridiculous that they didn't station someone outside the transporter room.

BTW, lest anyone think I'm picking on City, I have the same problem with security procedures in Space Seed, which I rank above City in my personal list. I'm not even talking about Kirk's inexcusable lapses in judgment, but the fact that there was only one guard, and if he'd just stationed himself across from Khan's quarters as opposed to right next to the door, well, short episode. That needed fixing too. At least there, Kyle (poor guy - he has this happen to him for the second time in the span of about five episode) is disabled more reasonably, by McGivers holding a phaser on him before any security alert is issued.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Nope, not implying that at all, TD.

Nope, wasn't directing that post in your direction, PT....just putting it out there for general reception.

 

[Marsden]

My opinion is that the Guardian is factually correct, as in the uniforms disappeared from 1930 along with the 3 time travelers almost instantly. While Edith's surviving would have changed history, what actually put things back right was her death. There was no option to take her with them. She would have turned to dust moving forward hundreds of years*. I don't think the Guardian cared at all about the existence of the Federation or Earth or it's wars, Edith was an anomaly in time and when that was fixed, woosh back to the planet.

*Or worse came out a brain eating zombie, snackin on red shirts.

 

[Roundabout]

Alt ending. Edith after being saved by Bones and then having the whole thing explained to her and that she cant go back with them grabs onto Kirk as he jumps back through the Guardian .'surprise'

If Edith had survived the episode, especially in that manner, I doubt the alt ending would have had the emotional resonance that the actual ending did have.

There would have been no bittersweetness to the ending. Kirk in all likelihood would not have said, "Let's get the hell out of here". With an ending of Edith saying "surprise", the story wouldn't have had the same impact as what we actually got. And as another poster pointed out, it would have ruined the message of the story.

Edith surviving in whatever form would not have been appropriate to the story. Spock was right, "Edith Keeler must die" (for the sake of the episode).

And the juxtaposition between an Edith "surprise" and the eerie music and wind sound effect, that was playing as Kirk and crew disappeared (beamed up) from that desolate planet, would have been awkward.

Also, Edith was a woman on a mission (and in a mission). It wouldn't have been in her character to do such a thing imo. She didn't seem as frivolous as Gillian was.

Your alt ending is an amusing re-imagining. But the actual ending is just fine as it is.