Discovery Showrunners fired; Kurtzman takes over

[cultcross]

The BBC for one. Star wars TFA is another example. Also Marvel comics studio has issued statements that only a person of the same race or gender can write those characters better. They hired based on that. They also have a slew of comics that got cancelled because they hired on that assumption, and not on talent alone.

You are still labouring under the assumption that there are "more talented" (however you define that) white hetero males being passed over when someone decides to cast a woman or hire a person of colour. This is a symptom of feeling that white straight males are the default, and a choice to go with someone different is necessarily a step down, a compromise.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Me too. Great era to be born in. We celebrated diversity without the focus, and virtue signals. We accepted it, until people made our gains go in reverse by focusing on race, gender, and sexuality thus creating a divide. If they just left it alone, progress was being made silently and with respect. Now, it's all out war. Social media has corrupted our gains, and given a few bigoted ignorant people the loudest voices, which gives us all bad names. Tho to be fair, the SJW crowd paint everyone who doesnt think as they do, or has legitimate reasons with the same brush. Which is also a problem.

Consider the casual Star Wars viewer., to them, not steeped in lore, the storm trooper were thought of as clones of Jango Fett. But once TFA hit, if someone simply asked what is up with a black Storm Trooper, not knowing the back story, they immediately were called racist. This for simply asking what that is all about. This is how so called "modern-day" attitudes have gone. Knee jerk, and always on identity politics alert. Its sad and unfortunate really, because real true honest unbiased debates get shut down for the most pitiful reasonings.

I'm a Gen-Xer too, so don't try and speak for all of us with your bigotry.

You know, I'm not really sure you're qualified to talk about people "focusing on race, gender, and sexuality" when it's literally the main complaint of almost half your posts around the board. I'm sure people would be more than happy to just watch Star Trek or Star Wars or Doctor Who or any other show without a bunch of throwbacks whining about how uppity minorities and women and gays are taking over jobs that used to be the exclusive domain of hetero white men.

What you call "virtue signalling" is called "being a decent human being" where I come from, but like you say, I'm sure you'd prefer if the oppressed "silently and respectfully" bide their time waiting for the dominant group to gradually come around to granting them rights piecemeal. Because that's how it works, never.

No, the people who were called racists are the ones who kept on whining about Finn being a black Stormtrooper after the question was answered for them, or who knew full well the answer all along and just didn't like that black folks were taking all the quality soldier for an evil empire jobs, if by all you mean one whole black guy. Oh sorry, and one woman too. Goodness gracious! It's a wave.

You get called a racist because you say racist (and sexist and homophobic) things, consistently. At least own up to it. I'm so sick of all these racists who recoil at the word like they're shocked to be accused of the thing they keep doing. Take your poor white male snowflake shit somewhere else. We're all full up here.

 

[jaime]

*adjusts beaded seat cover on head*

Much anger I sense...

Bugger, that’s Yoda. Not Picard. Ah well.
The nineties were a happier time for so many mind you.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Consider the casual Star Wars viewer., to them, not steeped in lore, the storm trooper were thought of as clones of Jango Fett

I agree with everything @Locutus of Bored just said, but I'd also like to point out that what I've quoted is a self-contradiction. It requires being steeped in lore, and fanon lore at that, to jump to the conclusion that all stormtroopers were clones of Jango Fett.

The casual viewer isn't going to give two shits about Jango Fett, assuming they can even remember his name.

But assuming that the so-called "casual viewer" is paying attention to minutia laid out in the films and considering its in-universe ramifications like generally only full-blown hardcore fans do, this rare viewer will realize that the rapid aging of the clones means that they will all be dying off and that they will be vanishing from the ranks unless they are replenished. Ergo, the presence of troopers who are not Jango clones decades later in the trooper ranks of the First Order by itself means, specifically and at the very least, that not all troopers by that point are Jango clones, and that quite possibly that that cloning process is no longer used at all, maybe because it is by that time defunct. Boom.

 

[Tuskin38]

I've know a few people and friends who thought AOTC and ROTS implied that OT Stormtroopers were clones. Nothing in the movies says that couldn't be true, it's all the out of movie material that explains it.

 

[jaime]

I agree with everything @Locutus of Bored just said, but I'd also like to point out that what I've quoted is a self-contradiction. It requires being steeped in lore, and fanon lore at that, to jump to the conclusion that all stormtroopers were clones of Jango Fett.

The casual viewer isn't going to give two shits about Jango Fett, assuming they can even remember his name.

But assuming that the so-called "casual viewer" is paying attention to minutia laid out in the films and considering its in-universe ramifications like generally only full-blown hardcore fans do, this rare viewer will realize that the rapid aging of the clones means that they will all be dying off and that they will be vanishing from the ranks unless they are replenished. Ergo, the presence of troopers who are not Jango clones decades later in the trooper ranks of the First Order means, specifically and at the very least, that not all troopers by that point are Jango clones, and that quite possibly that that cloning process is no longer used at all, maybe because it is by that time defunct. Boom.

I think his implication is that a ‘casual’ viewer has simply watched the films only, maybe followed them, and not any other lore...not seeing the films and forgotten. In which case the clone trooper storm trooper thing is a thing.
In general though, yeah, people complaining about Finn were just unpleasant people with unpleasant views.
I think the general point, that things have become polarised and battle lines drawn, with eager people on the nominal right and nominal left ready to bare their teeth at the merest hint of a provocation is very true, humanity is unpleasantly divided atm. That never ends well. I also think from an equality perspective, we have gone backwards, become more compartmentalised and generally unpleasant to one another based on x y z groupings, and there is a Year Zero approach that requires past progress to be forgotten so we can claim the hill all over again ( once upon a time, a film called Friday made a lot of people happy, and a super hero named Blade was the coolest thing. Ben Sisko led a crew, and Janeway too, The Craft did extremely well also, but all of these things are forgotten so we can have new ‘firsts’ to crow about. I wonder if it’s because these things were pre Web 2.0 and humans have short memories.) and it’s more combatitive than ever.
I hear the DSC room was a bit tense too, so this grrrrrrr seems to be everywhere ATM.

Nazi and Stasi wannabes are sneaking in round the edges though, little pokes here and there, hoping to start a fight.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think his implication is that a ‘casual’ viewer has simply watched the films only, maybe followed them, and not any other lore...not seeing the films and forgotten.

Which is exactly how I took it, so....

In which case the clone trooper storm trooper thing is a thing.

That would be true only if the viewer forgot that years passed between AOTC and the OT, and even more years between AOTC and the ST. Nowhere in any film is it stated that the cloning facilities are still in operation by the time of the OT, much less by the time of the ST.

That's something you can't have both ways. If the "casual viewer" forgets nothing, then they're going to remember the bits about years passing and rapid aging.

Not to mention they're going to be wondering about why all those stormtrooper voices don't match Jango's.

 

[Vger23]

 

[Jayson1]

Me too. Great era to be born in. We celebrated diversity without the focus, and virtue signals. We accepted it, until people made our gains go in reverse by focusing on race, gender, and sexuality thus creating a divide. If they just left it alone, progress was being made silently and with respect. Now, it's all out war. Social media has corrupted our gains, and given a few bigoted ignorant people the loudest voices, which gives us all bad names. Tho to be fair, the SJW crowd paint everyone who doesnt think as they do, or has legitimate reasons with the same brush. Which is also a problem.

Consider the casual Star Wars viewer., to them, not steeped in lore, the storm trooper were thought of as clones of Jango Fett. But once TFA hit, if someone simply asked what is up with a black Storm Trooper, not knowing the back story, they immediately were called racist. This for simply asking what that is all about. This is how so called "modern-day" attitudes have gone. Knee jerk, and always on identity politics alert. Its sad and unfortunate really, because real true honest unbiased debates get shut down for the most pitiful reasonings.

Just curious. Even if all this is true do you not think that those on the right have been somehow innocent when it comes to racism and sexism and if so why not spend at least a few threads on how they have gone to far? Surely not ever issue in the world comes down to SJW people going banana's. If people are going extreme its clearly not reserved to one side yet you never talk about how extreme those on the right have been which is why you can see how people might question your credibility on the issue. To borrow a phrase your complaints haven't been, fair and balanced.

Jason

 

[jaime]

Which is exactly how I took it, so....


That would be true only if the viewer forgot that years passed between AOTC and the OT, and even more years between AOTC and the ST. Nowhere in any film is it stated that the cloning facilities are still in operation by the time of the OT, much less by the time of the ST.

That's something you can't have both ways. If the "casual viewer" forgets nothing, then they're going to remember the bits about years passing and rapid aging.

Not to mention they're going to be wondering about why all those stormtrooper voices don't match Jango's.

I don’t think they will. The ‘all those guys under white helmets are the same dude’ is much more likely to stick than rapid aging and kiwi accents.
Ironically, most of the complaints I saw was that the empire is too rascist to have a black trooper.
Whole thing was nothing but idiots yelling if you ask me.

 

[Noname Given]

TNG was created by Gene Roddenberry, that's a very strong TOS connection right there and the initial promos made sure to mention him, it also indirectly referenced TOS by not being TOS, being different worked in their favor but that only really works the first time you do it, once the audience gets used to things being different the effect is lost.

"Being different worked in their favor..."

Really? Is that why in the second season of TNG they brought in the female McCoy close character of "Dr. Latherine Pulaski" who (exactly like McCoy):
- Didn't trust transporters
- Called herself an "old country doctor"

And was brought in specifically to try and resurrect the Spock/McCoy 'friendly jabs at each other - which failed miresably because of the way the TNG writers had developed data:

IE On TOS the relationship worked because Spock wasn't that naive and he gave as good as he got and held his own very well.

On TNG, because the writers (IMO the the character's detriment over the years) kept Data naive to a point that when Puklaski verbally jabbed at him, it came across like a nasty old woman (with a superiority complex) badgering a young child without the social experience to understand or give a similar come back.

Unti GR and his lawyer <--- who was a BIG cause of production strife in TNG's first two seasons (the 1987 WGA strile didn't help either) stepped back and let Micheal Piller should more of the load in the third Season of TNG, the die hard fans didn't want to see the first Trek TV revival in 13 years (counting TAS) crash and burn.

It wasn't until the 3rd Season episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" that a lot of TOS fans who had already given up on the show came back to give it another look and started watching it more regularly. That said, it did attract new viewers as well who either never heard of Star Trek before, or had no real interest in TOS.

It was the only Trek series (besides TOS in syndication) that GREW the Star Trek audience overall (Yes, each series brought new fans into the fold but they all alienated enough of the existing fanbase that overall audience rating share dropped series to series starting with DS9.

 

[Markonian]

IDK, if each new iteration had dropped more fans than it generated, the last movies wouldn’t have been successful and there maybe wouldn’t have been a VOY or ENT.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don’t think they will. The ‘all those guys under white helmets are the same dude’ is much more likely to stick than rapid aging and kiwi accents.

Given the level that TFA goes into Finn's backstory, it's pretty clear that only someone who was willfully ignorant about what was going on, willfully misrepresenting it, or somehow unable to follow what the characters were saying would actually believe that there was some sort of continuity problem.

 

[ITDUDE]

I've know a few people and friends who thought AOTC and ROTS implied that OT Stormtroopers were clones.

What, they aren't?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

What, they aren't?

There are almost no clones left by then.

 

[Jinn]

What, they aren't?

Nope. The clones were about this old shortly before A New Hope. Chances are the empire started recruiting.

 

[fireproof78]

What, they aren't?

No, but it's never explicitly been stated, that they are not.. There have been lots of fan theories around them. Battlefront II (the first one) goes in to it more, regarding how the clone veterans were slowly phased out and the Empire increased conscription rates to augment their ranks.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No, but it's never explicitly been stated, that they are not..

Let's unwind this. Where is it stated that they are?

 

[dahj]

Also, if you wanna make a case about the systemic discrimination of white male talent or whateves...

Also Marvel comics studio has issued statements that only a person of the same race or gender can write those characters better. They hired based on that.

... do you really think the MCU of all things is an appropriate example?
Seriously?

 

[jaime]

Given the level that TFA goes into Finn's backstory, it's pretty clear that only someone who was willfully ignorant about what was going on, willfully misrepresenting it, or somehow unable to follow what the characters were saying would actually believe that there was some sort of continuity problem.

I think the fuss was about the trailer that was released with him running across the desert. Anyone still asking after seeing the film, yes they didn’t pay attention or have other motivations.