Last Classic Who Story you watched

[The Borgified Corpse]

I mostly like "The Ark" but there are some pretty laughable things in the latter half of the story, like the "security kitchen" and the bit where one of the Monoids makes some vague, villainous, cackling reference to their evil plan right in front of Dodo and she says, "What's that supposed to mean? Are you hiding something?" And the Monoid just kinda stammers, "Umm, no?" Worst. Villain. Ever.

I remember this being one of my least favorite serials. I've always considered Graham Williams the weakest Doctor Who producer, with multiple stories in his run that I thought were really bad -- "The Invisible Enemy," "Underworld," "The Invasion of Time," "The Armageddon Factor," "The Horns of Nimon." Although it did give us "The Sun Makers" and "City of Death," so it wasn't all bad.

I like "The Invisible Enemy". I really like "The Invasion of Time," especially the fake out ending of Part 4. "Underworld" would be a lot better without all the terrible blue screen. It's been 14 years since I've seen "The Armageddon Factor" and I don't remember it very well. "The Horns of Nimon" is a great idea bogged down by some of the worst guest acting in the show's history.

When it comes to terrible guest acting, which story do you think is the worst? I think it's a tough call between "The Horns of Nimon," "An Unearthly Child," and "Delta and the Bannermen."

 

[Timewalker]

When it comes to terrible guest acting, which story do you think is the worst? I think it's a tough call between "The Horns of Nimon," "An Unearthly Child," and "Delta and the Bannermen."

Everything about Delta and the Bannermen is awful.

I'd have to nominate one of the guest cast from The Pirate Planet (one of the people who could feel their world being plundered). I don't remember his name, but I think he was Mula's brother(?). All that "Life-force-dying-life-force-dying" and he'd start moaning...

I wasn't overwhelmed with Prince Reinhart in The Androids of Tara, when he was chained in the dungeon. What is it with these insta-fevers whenever people get captured? Granted, medieval dungeons aren't the most healthy places, but he was only there for a few minutes or so before he got sick and had to be nursed (don't recall if it was by Romana or Strella at the time).

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Everything about Delta and the Bannermen is awful.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

That's a... generous word for them.

from a modern pov yes, but you have to remember that back then it was genuine pioneer work. Quite a lot of special visual effects were invented by the cameramen on Doctor Who and the brain scenes were something nobody had ever tried before. Nowadays it's simple to do with CGI but remember that back then they had no computers and did all the special effects by combining on film scale models, full-size elements with the actors ion/in them and bluescreen.
In addition to the splendid camera work, the lighting during the eras of the first 4 Doctors is always excellent and if you see what the props department did with cardboard and plywood at a budget that nowadays would barely settle the cast's coffee bill - hats off to those guys!

(Maybe "The Enemy Within" would've worked better

yes, that'd have been a good one. And I don't think fans are that easily to confuse. We tend to be smarter than we are given credit for.

 

[Christopher]

from a modern pov yes, but you have to remember that back then it was genuine pioneer work. Quite a lot of special visual effects were invented by the cameramen on Doctor Who and the brain scenes were something nobody had ever tried before. Nowadays it's simple to do with CGI but remember that back then they had no computers and did all the special effects by combining on film scale models, full-size elements with the actors ion/in them and bluescreen.

Oh, believe me, I'm a lifelong fan of pre-CGI effects and a great admirer of the innovation that went into them. And I've always been tolerant of imperfect FX, because for me as a kid in the '70s, that described most of the effects I ever saw. Yet even so, I found the FX in "The Invisible Enemy" to be crude-looking. However innovative they may have been in concept, the execution was still pretty weak, even by the standards of those of us who grew up in that era.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Honestly, I have this intense feeling that, beyond Troughton himself, there really isn't as much going for the Troughton era as its made out to be. Its odd, but his time seems populated with more kid-friendly writing than Hartnell ever did. But its morning here, so I might just be cranky.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Funny. I recently came to the conclusion that, while Troughton is a good Doctor, it's only his amazing chemistry with Jamie that gives the illusion of him being a great Doctor.

As for confusing duplicate titles, Doctor Who and Star Trek already share "The Armageddon Factor." And Doctor Who also keeps repeating title formats. "Planet of Giants," "Planet of the Daleks," "Planet of Evil," "Planet of Fire," "Planet of the Dead." "Day of Armageddon," "Day of the Daleks," "Day of the Moon," "Day of the Doctor." "The Seeds of Death," "The Seeds of Doom."

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Funny. I recently came to the conclusion that, while Troughton is a good Doctor, it's only his amazing chemistry with Jamie that gives the illusion of him being a great Doctor.

I dunno, I think Troughton literally gave it his all, especially early on. That's the saddest thing about the lost stories for me - not so much the stories themselves, but the sheer amount of awesomeness that we'll NEVER get to see Troughton do.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

And, again, I'm the opposite. From what I've seen of the scant surviving early Troughton episodes, I think that he got a lot better towards the end of his run.

 

[Christopher]

Honestly, I have this intense feeling that, beyond Troughton himself, there really isn't as much going for the Troughton era as its made out to be. Its odd, but his time seems populated with more kid-friendly writing than Hartnell ever did. But its morning here, so I might just be cranky.

The Troughton era has a lot going for it besides Troughton himself. Jamie and Zoe were terrific companions, and Victoria was pretty good before she degenerated into weepy-screamy all the time toward the end of her tenure. (I think she and Zoe were also two of the most gorgeous companions ever, but that's a matter of individual taste.) The era codified the "base under siege" format that would define much of the series going forward, and solidified the Cybermen as the most important Who villains after the Daleks, with classic stories like "The Moonbase," "The Tomb of the Cybermen," and "The Invasion." It introduced the underrated Ice Warriors, and of course it established the Time Lords. It made steps toward inclusion by casting actors of color in several serials. And it did stories engaging in political and social commentary/allegory. The Troughton era is bracketed by serials commenting on the futility of war and the arbitrary cruelty of those who start and perpetuate it for their own selfish goals, "The Power of the Daleks" and "The War Games" -- although season 6 also opened with "The Dominators," a satirical anti-pacifist allegory, so the show embraced both ends of the ideological spectrum. The Troughton era featured the debuts of multiple writers who'd be highly important to the series, including Malcolm Hulke, Terrance Dicks, and Robert Holmes. (Barry Letts also had his first DW credit in the Troughton era, though as a director.)

As for confusing duplicate titles, Doctor Who and Star Trek already share "The Armageddon Factor."

No, they don't. The only "Armageddon" titles in Star Trek are TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon" and DS9: "Armageddon Game." Maybe you're thinking of TOS: "The Alternative Factor."

However, Who and TNG do share the titles "The Chase," "Journey's End," and "Night Terrors." There's a near-miss with Voyager's "Caretaker" and Capaldi's "The Caretaker." And the '96 Doctor Who TV movie is sometimes unofficially called "The Enemy Within."

And Doctor Who also keeps repeating title formats. "Planet of Giants," "Planet of the Daleks," "Planet of Evil," "Planet of Fire," "Planet of the Dead." "Day of Armageddon," "Day of the Daleks," "Day of the Moon," "Day of the Doctor." "The Seeds of Death," "The Seeds of Doom."

But the use of such title formats in the modern series is an intentional homage to their use in the classic series.

 

[starsuperion]

The Troughton era has a lot going for it besides Troughton himself. Jamie and Zoe were terrific companions, and Victoria was pretty good before she degenerated into weepy-screamy all the time toward the end of her tenure. (I think she and Zoe were also two of the most gorgeous companions ever, but that's a matter of individual taste.) The era codified the "base under siege" format that would define much of the series going forward, and solidified the Cybermen as the most important Who villains after the Daleks, with classic stories like "The Moonbase," "The Tomb of the Cybermen," and "The Invasion." It introduced the underrated Ice Warriors, and of course it established the Time Lords. It made steps toward inclusion by casting actors of color in several serials. And it did stories engaging in political and social commentary/allegory. The Troughton era is bracketed by serials commenting on the futility of war and the arbitrary cruelty of those who start and perpetuate it for their own selfish goals, "The Power of the Daleks" and "The War Games" -- although season 6 also opened with "The Dominators," a satirical anti-pacifist allegory, so the show embraced both ends of the ideological spectrum. The Troughton era featured the debuts of multiple writers who'd be highly important to the series, including Malcolm Hulke, Terrance Dicks, and Robert Holmes. (Barry Letts also had his first DW credit in the Troughton era, though as a director.)





No, they don't. The only "Armageddon" titles in Star Trek are TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon" and DS9: "Armageddon Game." Maybe you're thinking of TOS: "The Alternative Factor."

However, Who and TNG do share the titles "The Chase," "Journey's End," and "Night Terrors." There's a near-miss with Voyager's "Caretaker" and Capaldi's "The Caretaker." And the '96 Doctor Who TV movie is sometimes unofficially called "The Enemy Within."




But the use of such title formats in the modern series is an intentional homage to their use in the classic series.

Troughton's Doctor seemed like he was all about testing his intellect against a seige. To do the one thing most difficult in war, defend a structure against an army siege. It was as if he was challenging himself to see how many bases he could defend and successfully defeat a siege. I kinda miss that aspect of the Doctor in the new series. Sure, there were a few instances. But hardly of the impact and scale the Troughton Doctor was capable of. That whit and humorous sarcasm coupled with a rather good facsimile of buffoonery, endeared him, but also hid his intellectual prowess and allowed him to do his best under a cloak so to speak. Brilliant era of Whovian lore. I just wish we could recover the rest of his era. I'd love to see more.

 

[Mr Awe]

The Troughton era has a lot going for it besides Troughton himself. Jamie and Zoe were terrific companions, and Victoria was pretty good before she degenerated into weepy-screamy all the time toward the end of her tenure. (I think she and Zoe were also two of the most gorgeous companions ever, but that's a matter of individual taste.)

100% agree about Wendy Padbury. I wasn't such a huge fan of Victoria, but Deborah Watling was a charming lady who I once had an extended private conversation with.

The era codified the "base under siege" format that would define much of the series going forward,

It should be noted that this was done more out of necessity than anything else. The series usually at this time usually had to use horribly tiny studios (Lime Grove Studios). Also, note that the 10th Planet with Hartnell was a classic base under siege story.

The Troughton era featured the debuts of multiple writers who'd be highly important to the series, including Malcolm Hulke, Terrance Dicks, and Robert Holmes. (Barry Letts also had his first DW credit in the Troughton era, though as a director.)

And, we shouldn't forget that JNT made his DW debut in this era as well--as a floor assistant. I believe in the Space Pirates, but I'm not positive. That's when he first met Troughton.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I love Jamie and Zoe, but Troughton was, with the very exception of some guests, was always a whole league above everyone else. He was literally better than most of the writing of the era was.

 

[Christopher]

I love Jamie and Zoe, but Troughton was, with the very exception of some guests, was always a whole league above everyone else.

I'd bet that "some guests" include Philip Madoc. He was amazing in "The War Games." The War Chief and the Security Chief had been hamming it up for multiple episodes, competing with each other for over-the-top mustache-twirling villainy, and then Madoc's War Lord showed up, calm and understated and subtle, and he was ten times as menacing as the other two.

 

[starsuperion]

I'd bet that "some guests" include Philip Madoc. He was amazing in "The War Games." The War Chief and the Security Chief had been hamming it up for multiple episodes, competing with each other for over-the-top mustache-twirling villainy, and then Madoc's War Lord showed up, calm and understated and subtle, and he was ten times as menacing as the other two.

hmmm.. agreed..

I wonder why they never retouched on that plot. The Warlord's planet and people were time looped, but with Gallifrey gone, it would seem that the time lock may have been able to be breached? Or possibly some remnant of their civilisation could have been out for revenge chasing the Doctor all this time. That would make a great plot point.. I wonder why no writer has done something around that yet? I just think these modern scripts after series 7 for the most part have been dull and repetitive and boring. Certain gems and exceptions of course, but for me, from series 7 on, I haven't really had much excitement watching the show.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I'd bet that "some guests" include Philip Madoc. He was amazing in "The War Games." The War Chief and the Security Chief had been hamming it up for multiple episodes, competing with each other for over-the-top mustache-twirling villainy, and then Madoc's War Lord showed up, calm and understated and subtle, and he was ten times as menacing as the other two.

They were all good in that serial. Its one of those where all the pieces really fit together, y know? Also, Madoc is usually good in all serials he's guested.

I do think Kevin Stoney was one of the best-ever guests in that run, though.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

No, they don't. The only "Armageddon" titles in Star Trek are TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon" and DS9: "Armageddon Game." Maybe you're thinking of TOS: "The Alternative Factor."

Doh! I was thinking of "A Taste of Armageddon."

I wonder why they never retouched on that plot.

While I don't recall the War Lord's planet ever coming back, the War Chief returned in the Virgin New Adventures novel "Timewyrm: Exodus."

I do think Kevin Stoney was one of the best-ever guests in that run, though.

Kevin Stoney as Tobias Vaughn in "The Invasion" is my favorite Doctor Who villain ever.

 

[starsuperion]

I dunno, I think Troughton literally gave it his all, especially early on. That's the saddest thing about the lost stories for me - not so much the stories themselves, but the sheer amount of awesomeness that we'll NEVER get to see Troughton do.

Yep the biggest clue is the way he played Salamander.. I mean, wow! such range and depth, and such a difference between that guy and his Doctor.. So cool. It makes me wonder what else was missing that someday may resurface somehow, and we see more of his brilliant performances.

 

[Gavin70]

While I don't recall the War Lord's planet ever coming back, the War Chief returned in the Virgin New Adventures novel "Timewyrm: Exodus."

While it's not canon (and probably explicitly denied by canon), in my own mind the War Chief has returned many times - as the Master. And his appearance as the War Chief was preceded by two appearances as the Meddling Monk.

As I said it's probably denied by canon but it works for me. It's no worse than trying to force together some of the other continuity issues from the show. All you need is a hammer to force the square peg into the round hole

 

[Christopher]

While it's not canon (and probably explicitly denied by canon), in my own mind the War Chief has returned many times - as the Master. And his appearance as the War Chief was preceded by two appearances as the Meddling Monk.

Onscreen Who has never referenced the War Chief after "The War Games," but Timewyrm: Exodus (by Terrance Dicks, co-author of TWG) establishes that the War Chief and the Master are two different people. Who doesn't really have a position on the canon status of the tie-ins, but a number of the novels have been contradicted by the new series (for instance, "Human Nature" and "The Family of Blood" were an adaptation of the New Adventures novel Human Nature, and it's unlikely that the Seventh and Tenth Doctors both went through essentially the same experience).

I like to believe the War Chief was the Master, but the Monk can't be. For one thing, the Monk isn't evil and sadistic like the Master; he thinks he's doing good by using his technology to help people in the past and artificially accelerate their progress, while the Doctor insists it's too reckless to try tampering with history. So it's more of a "Temporal Prime Directive" dispute than a good-vs.-evil thing. For another, the Doctor says he comes from 50 years earlier in his people's history than the Monk, and they don't seem to have known each other before "The Time Meddler," whereas the Doctor and the Master were school chums.