Balance of Terror Observations

[Pauln6]

Which would fit perfectly with the WW2 U-boat parallel that inspired the episode: Kind of slow diesel engines on the surface, really slow battery-electric drive submerged.

We do know from TNG that Romulan ships use artificial black holes to power warp drive so I suppose it's possible that Scotty would not have been able to determine the vessel's wider capabilities but from a story perspective it makes little sense. If they believed that they had destroyed all the local bases they were intending to destroy, they could have warped away and there would have been nobody around to see. In season 3 the cloaks functioned at warp but these were an upgrade, admittedly.

Their warp trail would have decayed long before anyone could track them though, or so they should have believed.

Tactically, if they wanted to leave no recordable trace of their visit, staying cloaked and sub-light until they were out of the Neutral Zone would make sense I suppose but then they screwed that up by not encrypting or firewalling their communications.

 

[Samuel]

We do know from TNG that Romulan ships use artificial black holes to power warp drive so I suppose it's possible that Scotty would not have been able to determine the vessel's wider capabilities but from a story perspective it makes little sense. If they believed that they had destroyed all the local bases they were intending to destroy, they could have warped away and there would have been nobody around to see. In season 3 the cloaks functioned at warp but these were an upgrade, admittedly.

Their warp trail would have decayed long before anyone could track them though, or so they should have believed.

Tactically, if they wanted to leave no recordable trace of their visit, staying cloaked and sub-light until they were out of the Neutral Zone would make sense I suppose but then they screwed that up by not encrypting or firewalling their communications.

What makes you think that Romulan starships in the 23rd or 22nd centuries use the same power sources as those in the 24th?

U.S. Navy ships in the 21st century don't use the same power sources as they did 100 years ago. Much less 200 years ago.

 

[Pauln6]

What makes you think that Romulan starships in the 23rd or 22nd centuries use the same power sources as those in the 24th?

U.S. Navy ships in the 21st century don't use the same power sources as they did 100 years ago. Much less 200 years ago.

I was speculating to expand on someone else's speculation. There is no evidence to contradict this either. If you only want the real explanation: the writers screwed up - you might as well just go home.

In TNG the Federation seems to rely on Troi's Intel from her time in their ship. This implies that their power source is shielded from ordinary scans. :-)

Although of course , this might have been known but they wanted to give Troi something useful to say for once.

 

[Timo]

Also, Earth warships three hundred years ago used the very same power source as warships a thousand and three hundred years ago.

We have no reason to believe that technology in the eras depicted in Star Trek advances rapidly. Quite to the contrary, there seems to be nothing truly new appearing between the ENT and TNG eras. And why should there be? Where would innovation come from? At the beginning of ENT, Earth becomes part of a vast interstellar community, which soon enough starts sharing its knowhow. Once all is shared, everybody has everything, including stuff some of the member cultures have struggled for thousands of years to achieve. Why would any of the upstarts do better and add anything to the whole?

Romulus is an even more extreme case - they flew across stars to their new home about two thousand years before we first meet them. Why would they come up with a radically new power source in the two centuries we closely observe, instead of the twenty we do not?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Samuel]

Well if you give "The Romulan War" by Diane Duane any credence (and I do, canon or not) the Romulans left Vulcan in sub light generation ships basically of the same designs that have been floated around in real life since the 20th century here on Earth. Ram scoops, fusion power plants and all that.

The only "new" method of propulsion being some Vulcan (Romulan) telepaths were strong enough to telekinetically bootstrap their ships up to near the speed of light. Though this was said to generally kill the telepath. Which played a major role in the extinction of the Vulcan telepathic skills among the Romulans.

I also find it kind of ridiculous the idea that the Romulans have only one power source for their starships. At one point in the 1980s, U.S. Navy warships operated on three different power systems. Nuclear, gas turbines, old fashioned boilers (Iowa class). Make that four different power systems if you count the U.S.S. Constitution (wind power) which was (and is) still in commission.

 

[J.T.B.]

At one point in the 1980s, U.S. Navy warships operated on three different power systems. Nuclear, gas turbines, old fashioned boilers (Iowa class).

Plus diesel (LSD, LST). And lots of steam plants in the '80s USN newer than the Iowas (Midways, Forrestals, Kittys, Knoxes, Belknaps, Farraguts and on and on).

 

[Pauln6]

Well if you give "The Romulan War" by Diane Duane any credence (and I do, canon or not) the Romulans left Vulcan in sub light generation ships basically of the same designs that have been floated around in real life since the 20th century here on Earth. Ram scoops, fusion power plants and all that.

The only "new" method of propulsion being some Vulcan (Romulan) telepaths were strong enough to telekinetically bootstrap their ships up to near the speed of light. Though this was said to generally kill the telepath. Which played a major role in the extinction of the Vulcan telepathic skills among the Romulans.

I also find it kind of ridiculous the idea that the Romulans have only one power source for their starships. At one point in the 1980s, U.S. Navy warships operated on three different power systems. Nuclear, gas turbines, old fashioned boilers (Iowa class). Make that four different power systems if you count the U.S.S. Constitution (wind power) which was (and is) still in commission.

Federation ships use anti matter drives, fusion reactors, hydrogen thrusters, and back up batteries. No doubt the Romulans normally have a similar range of redundancy but they use gravity drives instead of anti-matter . Maybe their plasma weapons are backed up by a gravity wave to make them doubly destructive .

I rather liked the notion that Romulan weapons were extra dangerous. I wish they'd built on that.

 

[Maurice]

Have I wandered into a Trek Tech forum discussion here?

 

[Samuel]

Federation ships use anti matter drives, fusion reactors, hydrogen thrusters, and back up batteries. No doubt the Romulans normally have a similar range of redundancy but they use gravity drives instead of anti-matter . Maybe their plasma weapons are backed up by a gravity wave to make them doubly destructive .

I rather liked the notion that Romulan weapons were extra dangerous. I wish they'd built on that.

IIRC from what I've read about using artificial singularities as starship power systems, believe it or not there is a serious design online for a slower than light starship using a 660,000 ton singularity the size of a proton as its power source, the force of gravity is NOT the power source, but the power actually comes from "leakage" from the singularity itself.

Note, the analysis of the slower than light starship online says that the singularity would in fact be more powerful than antimatter.

Remember that gravity is actually one of the weakest forces in the universe.

 

[Pauln6]

IIRC from what I've read about using artificial singularities as starship power systems, believe it or not there is a serious design online for a slower than light starship using a 660,000 ton singularity the size of a proton as its power source, the force of gravity is NOT the power source, but the power actually comes from "leakage" from the singularity itself.

Note, the analysis of the slower than light starship online says that the singularity would in fact be more powerful than antimatter.

Remember that gravity is actually one of the weakest forces in the universe.

Yeah I knew that singularities were a theoretical power source. It's cool! Anti-matter would not produce enough energy for warp drive either so perhaps the Romulans also have a method of boosting power like dilithium.

That said if the Romulans had a gravity drive, you would have thought Scotty would have detected more energy. It's possible that they depleted their drive by using their weapon more than originally intended.

 

[Marsden]

Yeah I knew that singularities were a theoretical power source. It's cool! Anti-matter would not produce enough energy for warp drive either so perhaps the Romulans also have a method of boosting power like dilithium.

That said if the Romulans had a gravity drive, you would have thought Scotty would have detected more energy. It's possible that they depleted their drive by using their weapon more than originally intended.

Or this was before that technology was created. Those 24th century Romulan vessels are much larger.

 

[Pauln6]

Or this was before that technology was created. Those 24th century Romulan vessels are much larger.

Possibly but there is no wholly satisfactory explanation. they can't be travelling too fast at sub-light or they'd start to suffer time dilation. At half the speed of light it would take about three days just to get from the sun to the edge of our solar system. Just how small is the Neutral zone supposed to be? It takes a while to get through it at warp.

Either

1. they have conventional anti-matter warp that they don't use and Scotty can't detect or

2. they have unconventional warp ( e.g. gravity drive) they don't use and Scotty can't detect) or
3. they have a detached Warp drive hidden and waiting in the Neutral zone or
4. they have a mother ship waiting in the Neutral zone or
5. they were intending to take years to get home or
6. the neutral zone is just outside the Romulan star system.

Which is your preferred explanation to explain away the plot hole and why do you feel it's the winner?

 

[Mytran]

Possibly but there is no wholly satisfactory explanation. they can't be travelling too fast at sub-light or they'd start to suffer time dilation. At half the speed of light it would take about three days just to get from the sun to the edge of our solar system. Just how small is the Neutral zone supposed to be? It takes a while to get through it at warp.

Either

1. they have conventional anti-matter warp that they don't use and Scotty can't detect or

2. they have unconventional warp ( e.g. gravity drive) they don't use and Scotty can't detect) or
3. they have a detached Warp drive hidden and waiting in the Neutral zone or
4. they have a mother ship waiting in the Neutral zone or
5. they were intending to take years to get home or
6. the neutral zone is just outside the Romulan star system.

Which is your preferred explanation to explain away the plot hole and why do you feel it's the winner?

As far as BOT is concerned, option 6 is by the most fitting and least problematic. It matches Kirk's line about the RNZ, the comet's tail makes sense, STL travel is not an issue, Enterprise's super fast progress across the map fits better, and so on. Then there's the outposts themselves - how useful could they really be if spread across a massive distance? I suppose at extreme sensor range they might spot ships crossing the perimeter in deep space, but even then communications take 3 hours to reach Starfleet command! They are armed with phasers (the unfortunate guy on Outpost 4 says so) but how useful would that be across the light years that must exist in between the outposts? If on the other hand we are dealing with a single star system, then the outposts can operate more like guard towers, shooting down any ships from Romulus or Remus that attempt to run the blockade.

Some more pros and cons of the single system model were recently discussed here, along with some speculation on how the Neutral Zone(s) change over the decades that follow the events of BOT:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/balance-of-terror.291804/page-4#post-12325967

 

[ZapBrannigan]

6. the neutral zone is just outside the Romulan star system.

I would resist that suggestion because in real life, the fastest spacecraft we ever launched took ten years to get to Pluto.

If they take years to return from their attack, anything they learned about Federation weakness would be hopelessly out of date. Gotta have warp drive.

 

[Pauln6]

I would resist that suggestion because in real life, the fastest spacecraft we ever launched took ten years to get to Pluto.

If they take years to return from their attack, anything they learned about Federation weakness would be hopelessly out of date. Gotta have warp drive.

Our fastest ship to date was very slow. If you look at 50% light speed as a guesstimate for how fast you can go before experiencing time dilation they could do it in a day. Hell in TMP they seem to manage it in a couple of hours.

While I agree that there is more onscreen evidence to support the fact that the neutral zone is set at the edge of the Romulan star system, it does feel wrong. One could not help feeling the Romulans must have lost if they were hemmed into their own star system.

 

[Mytran]

I'm certainly not advocating that the Romulans weren't FTL capable! However, it's not unreasonable to think that the BOP mega-weapon test vehicle had to sacrifice this option for the mission

 

[CorporalCaptain]

However, it's not unreasonable to think that the BOP mega-weapon test vehicle had to sacrifice this option for the mission

It's not really supported by the episode so much as consistent with it, but another alternative for the Bird of Prey in "Balance of Terror" to be totally FTL-incapable would be if there were a mother ship capable of carrying it at FTL speeds that was waiting for it on the other side of the Neutral Zone, and that it or a similar such ship had carried it to the Zone in the first place.

 

[Marsden]

As far as BOT is concerned, option 6 is by the most fitting and least problematic. It matches Kirk's line about the RNZ, the comet's tail makes sense, STL travel is not an issue, Enterprise's super fast progress across the map fits better, and so on. Then there's the outposts themselves - how useful could they really be if spread across a massive distance? I suppose at extreme sensor range they might spot ships crossing the perimeter in deep space, but even then communications take 3 hours to reach Starfleet command! They are armed with phasers (the unfortunate guy on Outpost 4 says so) but how useful would that be across the light years that must exist in between the outposts? If on the other hand we are dealing with a single star system, then the outposts can operate more like guard towers, shooting down any ships from Romulus or Remus that attempt to run the blockade.

Some more pros and cons of the single system model were recently discussed here, along with some speculation on how the Neutral Zone(s) change over the decades that follow the events of BOT:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/balance-of-terror.291804/page-4#post-12325967

I agree with most of that, but I think the phasers are point defense to protect the personnel and base itself while they are primarily listening posts rather than fortresses.

Our fastest ship to date was very slow. If you look at 50% light speed as a guesstimate for how fast you can go before experiencing time dilation they could do it in a day. Hell in TMP they seem to manage it in a couple of hours.

While I agree that there is more onscreen evidence to support the fact that the neutral zone is set at the edge of the Romulan star system, it does feel wrong. One could not help feeling the Romulans must have lost if they were hemmed into their own star system.

I do feel the Romulans must have lost, if they didn't wouldn't Captain Kirk be working in the Romulan star fleet?

Flippancy aside, if the Romulans were in any way "winning" they would not have stopped. They must have been beaten because guys that attack with everything they've got at the slightest weakness and fight until they've won or died don't seem like the type to accept a draw or any other type of reasonable negotiation. Just because they were hemmed in Federationward doesn't mean they don't have a vast empire that way or that way, their territory could be roughly triangular and the home system does not have to be in the middle.

 

[Pauln6]

I do feel the Romulans must have lost, if they didn't wouldn't Captain Kirk be working in the Romulan star fleet?

Very few wars end with one side being annihilated or conquered completely. Clearly the Romulans didn't win. Does it automatically follow that they lost?

I suppose if their goal was to expand into Federation territory, they most definitely lost, especially if we run with the theory that the Neutral zone is literally on their doorstep.

And yet they are still titled an empire. They must occupy other systems . For their border to be where it is, it does look as if they lost territory.

 

[Poltargyst]

I'm content to say the writer screwed up and the Bird of Prey did have warp capabilities, though maybe it's top speed was much lower than the Enterprise's. Nothing else makes sense to me.