Balance of Terror Observations

[Pauln6]

Um no. Take a look at supernovas. Those are explosions that cause plenty of damage and have huge shock waves.

Probably not a shockwave as we understand it. The superheated gas expelled would be destructive, the radiation would be destructive, gravitational waves may or may not be, but not a shockwave, which is caused by sound, is not likely to be the same kind of thing in space.

 

[Samuel]

People shouldn't put too much stock in the literalism of the "map" shown in BOT. Even the most advanced charts we have today of our own solar system still shows planets millions of times larger than they are in real life and the distances between them millions of times smaller.
This for the simple reason that it is all but impossible to realistically represent true sizes and distances on any kind of chart that can be handled personally.

 

[Christopher]

I wasn’t assuming that that map was meant to represent the entire star system. Just the parent star (Romulus) and the Romulan homeworld (Romii). It’s called artistic license. Although I did realize since my last post that it’s probably not RomII (2) because the earth outpost 1 clearly shows a numeral 1, so therefore if it was the second planet it would have been “Rom2,” not “RomII.” So that planet’s name seems to be Romii, and for all we know it’s the only planet orbiting the “Romulus” star.

Again: no cartographer would EVER draw a map of a planetary system without including orbits. It makes zero sense to put a planet in just one place on the map, because the planet wouldn't stay in that place. It constantly circles its star, so the orbit it follows would have to be there. What you're calling "artistic license" would be sheer incompetence. This isn't a child's drawing, it's an official Starfleet graphic meant to convey useful cartographic information.

People shouldn't put too much stock in the literalism of the "map" shown in BOT. Even the most advanced charts we have today of our own solar system still shows planets millions of times larger than they are in real life and the distances between them millions of times smaller.
This for the simple reason that it is all but impossible to realistically represent true sizes and distances on any kind of chart that can be handled personally.

But the distances shown between them are in proportion to each other. The individual bodies are enlarged for clarity, but the relative distances between them are consistent so that you can compare them against each other meaningfully.

I mean, there's actually a distance scale right there in the middle of the Neutral Zone map, and there's a set of grid lines. That means that people would've been able to use the map and its scale to determine the correct distances between things, and thus the depiction of those distances would have to be accurate and in proportion.

 

[Samuel]

Um no. Take a look at supernovas. Those are explosions that cause plenty of damage and have huge shock waves.

But the "shock wave" of a supernova is NOT due to an explosion being transmitted through a medium such as atmosphere, ocean or Earth's crust like on our planet.

A supernovas "shock wave" is composed of actual matter blasted out of the star. It is easier to think of a supernovas "shock wave" as being more akin to "shrapnel".

 

[Dukhat]

As I said, it’s also possible that “Romulus” is the star, and the system only has one planet, Romii, and that Remus is in some other nearby system. The map isn’t meant to show orbits, just that the system contains one world. When you see this diagram of our solar system, does it show the orbits? No. It just shows the planets.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Planets2013.svg/2000px-Planets2013.svg.png

 

[Christopher]

But the "shock wave" of a supernova is NOT due to an explosion being transmitted through a medium such as atmosphere, ocean or Earth's crust like on our planet.

A supernovas "shock wave" is composed of actual matter blasted out of the star. It is easier to think of a supernovas "shock wave" as being more akin to "shrapnel".

Well, actually there is a shock wave in the interstellar medium resulting from a supernova expelling its atmosphere into that medium at high velocity. But as I said, that medium is far too diffuse for that wave to cause any damage to much of anything. Movies and TV have conditioned us to assume "shock wave" means some devastating, destructive force, but it really just means a wave propagating faster than the speed of sound in a medium. And the interstellar medium is very, very tenuous, so though the shock wave exists, it isn't a destructive phenomenon, certainly not in the ways depicted in movies.

What causes the damage from a supernova is the immense bursts of radiation -- first the intense pulse of gamma radiation propagating at the speed of light, then the front of relativistic particle radiation following it slightly later (more delayed at greater distances as it lags further behind). The planets around a supernova star wouldn't be "blown away" like Romulus in the 2009 movie, but flash-melted or vaporized by the sheer intensity of gamma radiation hitting them. Planets in nearby star systems would just be hit by intense radiation bursts strong enough to cause mass extinctions, maybe evaporate part their atmospheres if they were near enough.

As I said, it’s also possible that “Romulus” is the star, and the system only has one planet, Romii, and that Remus is in some other nearby system. The map isn’t meant to show orbits, just that the system contains one world. When you see this diagram of our solar system, does it show the orbits? No. It just shows the planets.

Oh, come on. That's not even a map, just a diagram.

I give up. You're inexplicably beyond reason on this incredibly trivial issue.

 

[Dukhat]

Oh, come on. That's not even a map, just a diagram.

And the “map” looks like some 10 year old drew it in art class. So what?

I give up. You're inexplicably beyond reason on this incredibly trivial issue.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t treat me like I was some kind of dumbass. I was just having some fun. If you want to get personal, feel free to send me a PM.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes it clearly is just a diagram. It's more interesting that the writers placed the Romulan Homeworld so close to the neutral zone with nothing in between: no defence posts, space stations, or other star systems . Even the Vulcans and Andorians have spread to other star systems. The Romulans look lame.

Admittedly, hard to spread to other systems without warp drive but as discussed earlier, they must have had warp drive even if their new Assassin gunship didn't .

 

[Poltargyst]

It is completely unbelievable that the Romulan Bird of Prey didn't have FTL capabilities.

 

[Samuel]

It is completely unbelievable that the Romulan Bird of Prey didn't have FTL capabilities.

I always figured when Scotty said "Their power (note the word "power") is strictly impulse" he was referring to the system that provided power for the faster than light engines. Not that the ship was only sublight capable.

Given that just about everything we've heard over five television series indicates that the impulse engines aboard Federation ships are normally powered by fusion reactors, it very easily could mean that the Romulan ship in BOT had faster than light capability but just it wasn't nearly as powerful as that of the Enterprise because it was powered by fusion reactors.

 

[Pauln6]

It is completely unbelievable that the Romulan Bird of Prey didn't have FTL capabilities.

Not unbelievable if she's just an attack ship who's been transported to a stop off point in the Neutral zone from which to launch the attack.

You could just as easily argue that a cloaking device is pointless if another vessel within sensor range can detect its movement. Nevertheless, it's not realistic to suggest that another vessel within range couldn't detect warp distortions, gas and debris displaced by a navigational deflector, or vented gas expelled to manoeuvre.

Later versions of the cloak may have been more exciting but they were more magical than technological. It's a tool to get close so your enemy has a limited opportunity to summon reinforcements (this isn't NuTrek where it takes only half an hour to traverse interstellar distances) or to pass by unobserved by posing as interstellar debris, or to prevent a weapons lock. Fancy flying is going to make you stand out, cloaked or not.

 

[Marsden]

Again: no cartographer would EVER draw a map of a planetary system without including orbits. It makes zero sense to put a planet in just one place on the map, because the planet wouldn't stay in that place. It constantly circles its star, so the orbit it follows would have to be there. What you're calling "artistic license" would be sheer incompetence. This isn't a child's drawing, it's an official Starfleet graphic meant to convey useful cartographic information.

No, and Maurice can correct me for using the wrong term, it's a prop for a tv show that was probably done in a short amount of time. So it's generic and probably not useful. It gives a vague general idea for people at home to see something.

I'd like to mention that there's a mention of outpost 8 and it's not on that map. I think, like a lot of science fiction book covers that don't resemble anything in the book, it's just a picture so when Kirk says Mister Spock, put this star sector on our screen that there is something on the screen. That's probably why no one has ever mentioned Romii again.

How would Romii be pronounced? It would be funny if some future production shows is and someone points it out and says, there's Remus. Because that's how Remus is spelled, Romii.

 

[Poltargyst]

Not unbelievable if she's just an attack ship who's been transported to a stop off point in the Neutral zone from which to launch the attack.

Sounded to me like they left their home system under their own power and were making their way who knows how far into Federation space with the intent of then returning to their home system. Those distances are too great for slower than light travel.

 

[Poltargyst]

I always figured when Scotty said "Their power (note the word "power") is strictly impulse" he was referring to the system that provided power for the faster than light engines. Not that the ship was only sublight capable.

Given that just about everything we've heard over five television series indicates that the impulse engines aboard Federation ships are normally powered by fusion reactors, it very easily could mean that the Romulan ship in BOT had faster than light capability but just it wasn't nearly as powerful as that of the Enterprise because it was powered by fusion reactors.

Well, I hope it's something like that.

 

[BK613]

@Samuel that's been my take on impulse power as well.
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Question: How big is a "star sector?" Because Kirk tells Spock to put "this star sector" on the screen and the Map in Question is what Spock put on the screen. Myself, I favor the multi-system approach, in part because it better allows the Commander and Centurion to have seen a hundred campaigns together.

 

[Pauln6]

Sounded to me like they left their home system under their own power and were making their way who knows how far into Federation space with the intent of then returning to their home system. Those distances are too great for slower than light travel.

Spock used a detachable warp sled in TMP.

 

[Poltargyst]

Spock used a detachable warp sled in TMP.

Are you saying they were hoping to hook back up with their detachable warp sled when they were fleeing from Enterprise? And what advantage is a detachable warp sled to a warship or why would it be necessary?

 

[Pauln6]

Are you saying they were hoping to hook back up with their detachable warp sled when they were fleeing from Enterprise? And what advantage is a detachable warp sled to a warship or why would it be necessary?

Don't get me wrong , I know the writers screwed up but they were quite specific that the ship was travelling at impulse. To have any hope of getting home in their lifetime they would need access to warp. This means:

1. They had warp drive but chose not to use it. Odd (Kirk warps away under cloak in season 3).
2. They were due to rendezvous with their detachable warp drive. Not mentioned but possible. Would have to parked
3. They were due to rendezvous with another warp capable ship. Not mentioned but possible . Less likely since the dialogue suggested they had to get home on their own.

Ergo, a hidden, detachable warp drive hidden just inside the Neutral Zone is my preferred patch for the plot hole.

 

[Marsden]

I always took Mr. Scott's line, " No question. Their power is simple impulse." is referring to the kind of power they have. They don't have Ion power, which seemed to wow everyone so much, they don't have Atomic power, which would be considered primitive at the time, it was a regular, normal type of power system that was powering their very irregular and new cloak and plasma torpedoes.

 

[Poltargyst]

I always took Mr. Scott's line, " No question. Their power is simple impulse." is referring to the kind of power they have. They don't have Ion power, which seemed to wow everyone so much, they don't have Atomic power, which would be considered primitive at the time, it was a regular, normal type of power system that was powering their very irregular and new cloak and plasma torpedoes.

It's just that every time the Enterprise goes to impulse, they go slower than light.