White self-hatred.... it's impact on mixed race people and families?

[Lord Garth]

I judge people as individuals and by who they are, not what they are. If you go back far enough, everyone's ancestors are guilty of something.

Nothing can be done about the past. Something can be done about right now. Something can be done about the future. Trying to make sure there's equality and equity across racial and gender lines is what should be striven for.

 

[Jayson1]

I'm not sure guilt is the emotion I would go for. I think empathy or compassion. which I think might be what Marynator is going for. Guilt is a negative emotion that makes people feel bad and is linked to much to the concept of punishment. I mean the guilty after all are the people we send to prison's in theory. I'm not sure if you can get people to do good if they feel like they have to pay a price for doing good. It also puts to much attention on the past where empathy and compassion embraces today and offers hope for the future and I think makes people simply feel good because being nice to people does make people feel good. I think it's easier to substain as well long-term.

Of course one issue is the simply fact that no matter how people internalize the struggle it's never going to be fully consistent because it's not like humans only feel one emotion or even a few. We have to deal with a constant flow of positive and negative emotions on a daily basis. How someone feels can be connected to what they are dealing with in their personal lives. You could say that hope is the feeling that is most important to try and hold onto. It's the one that humans have the hardest time giving up. That and having pratical idea's on how you think things should be done to make things better. Emotion only goes so far without leaders making changes to try and fix problems and also having leaders who can put more focus on this stuff than the average person can because they have to put more focus on their own personal lives. Without good leaders everything will fall apart.

Jason

 

[Mojochi]

Imagine that like you're born in a castle full of grain, and you grew up there. Your ancestors stole all that grain, but you didn't, but you have it now, and people outside are starving, but you're all comfortable behind your walls. Don't you feel you should feel guilt, even though like you personally weren't responsible?

No, I feel that I shouldn't use the grain, or at the very least, let the starving into the castle to have at it. Feeling guilt accomplishes so much less than that. Nothing at all actually

 

[Refuge]

I can't help but feel the OP's reflections have been a little compartmentalised in the discussion. It is distinct being either in a mixed-race family or to be of mixed-race yourself. It is its own identity and with that the legacy you inherit from those before you. We all share that but to carry mixed messages to validate your personal worth based on the 'sins of the parents' has to move on from self-(or race) flagellation to being positively constructive. That comes from choices you make and from living.

It's really not the parents misstep to be acting out from what they too have inherited (as in how their attitudes are shaped). If it is their journey to feel guilt and regret then that is simply the way they reconcile and cope. However I think it is progress for their children, mixed race or otherwise to make their own mark, leave their own legacy

 

[thribs]

I don’t hate myself. At least I don’t think so.

 

[Timewalker]

I would recommend reading this article from The Root, it might help understand a little bit?

https://www.theroot.com/reverse-racism-explained-1823964786

Okay, read it. Your point? Should those families I mentioned, whether in Calgary or on the reserve, have to have a 500-year-history of slavery behind them to feel legitimately afraid and angry at being threatened, harassed, and worse (at least nobody was killed) just for not being either Sudanese or indigenous? Should they be required to have that 500-year-history before seeing the perpetrators as racists?

I'm saddened people still aren't seeing how currently benefiting from historical oppression does not make you culpable? We as white people today still enjoy an advantage at other peoples' expense. Oh it's so totally real and going on constantly. I know people don't want to acknowledge it because it's so very uncomfortable. It's everyone's responsibility now to help overturn our system and bring about equality, but how are you really going to be a part of that without deep self reflection and guilt about your own privilege?

Oh. For. Crying. Out. Loud.

If I'd lived in the 1800s and cheered on Sir John A. Macdonald when he decided that kidnapping aboriginal children from their families, taking them hundreds of miles away, imprisoning them in church-run residential schools, and literally beating their culture and language out of them, subjecting them to child labor, poor food and medical care, raping them, and not even informing their families if/when the kids died... then you could call me guilty.

For that matter, if I were a supporter of Senator Lynn Beyak, who thinks these schools were run by "kindly teachers" who really did love the kids and did everything for their benefit (FYI, if there were any grounds to kick this racist POS out of the Canadian senate, she'd be gone already; since senators are appointed here and keep their jobs until age 75, there's not much hope) and posted a slew of racist letters and emails on her official website, you could call me "culpable" because I really would be guilty, and a horrible person.

You seem to think that people here have never thought about these things before today, or acknowledged that we're living on land that used to belong to people whose ancestors came here over 10,000 years ago. I have thought about it, but newsflash: I have no intention of "going back" to Europe, because I was never there to begin with. If all of us "went back to where we came from," East Africa would get very crowded. I don't think they've got room for all of us there anymore.

What I do about this is to make sure I never vote for any candidate or party that doesn't take these issues seriously. That means never voting Reformacon (aka Conservative Party of Canada). Their former leader, who was the Prime Minister for nearly 10 years, was once asked about what progress his party had made to address the problem of the missing/murdered aboriginal women in British Columbia. He said, "It's not on my radar, to be honest." (paraphrase)

Sexist candidates will not get my vote. Candidates who don't support LBGT rights or same-sex rights will not get my vote. Candidates who don't support women's right to choose, or age-appropriate sex education do not get my vote. Ditto disabled people's rights (I fall into this category and had to fight like hell for my right to vote in the last federal election because the Returning Officer found it inconvenient to do her job when it comes to dealing with disabled voters who need a bit more effort from Elections Canada). I apply these standards at all three levels - municipal, provincial, and federal.

Reverse sexism is just as much a myth. Sexism and racism require power, which women and minorities don't have. Here's an interesting article you can read that maybe will explain much better than I will?

https://thegenderblenderblog.wordpr...act-there-is-no-such-thing-as-reverse-sexism/

Your nurse example is just another of sexism against women, men who work in "female" careers are looked down on because he's doing a woman's job, he's less of a person because he's too much like a woman. That's totally degrading to women! But oh yes absolutely men do suffer from sexism, but sexism only exists as power of men over women, it's just not possible to go the other way. Yes you can be a woman and be a man-hater or something, and you can discriminate against men, but that's not sexism, just like minorities discriminating against white people isn't racism.

@Marynator, if you want to address a specific poster without using quotes, please type "@" in front of the name (without a space), so we know who you're talking to.

So a man being harassed for being a nurse is not really a victim because nursing is seen as women's work, therefore lesser, so if he catches hell from someone, it's really the women who are the victims?

O-kay...

Would it be better if the male nurse I was thinking about happened to be a refugee from one of those countries in Africa that force young boys into becoming child soldiers and teach them to kill others in very gruesome ways, and this particular guy escaped, made it to a refugee camp, eventually made it to Canada, and when I met him he was my across-the-hall neighbor and told me an edited-for-gruesomeness version of his life story when he asked for my help one night because he was having trouble submitting one of his nursing papers online? Would a male nurse be entitled to feel himself a target only if he were black or aboriginal? I guess if he's white he can just shut up, according to what I'm seeing in these posts.

I still feel what people are struggling to understand is how if you're white, you have privilege, though yes you will feel it differently for everyone, but it's still there, and privilege comes at someone else's expense, and minorities are still oppressed today. Oh dear I really hope people seriously don't believe we're in a post-oppression society? You see that's totally why all this white-guilt and male-guilt stuff is absolutely necessary so we can work towards equality?

Of course nobody is saying that oppression isn't going on. A lot of people are working toward equality.

But we don't have to wallow in personal guilt for the sins of our ancestors as a requirement.

I do not get up in the morning and think, "I have white skin, therefore I am a horrible person and have to work to mitigate centuries of oppression of non-white people."

Why should I? I, Timewalker, am not one of the people who committed those acts, nor do I support those acts, past or present. When I speak out against the Reformacons' attempts to disenfranchise marginal groups of people, I include the indigenous people because they are among the five groups who were targeted: Seniors, aboriginals, students, disabled, and homeless.

Imagine that like you're born in a castle full of grain, and you grew up there. Your ancestors stole all that grain, but you didn't, but you have it now, and people outside are starving, but you're all comfortable behind your walls. Don't you feel you should feel guilt, even though like you personally weren't responsible? White guilt is about you and I as white people benefiting from white privilege, I know it's really terribly difficult concept, I'm so very sorry I haven't been more patient and compassionate tonight.

Guilty for being born there? Hell, no.

Guilty for not sharing? Only if you actually don't share.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'm not a fan of identity politics. Just treating everyone with respect and judging someone by their character, or not judging them at all, has served me well over the years.

That basically is identity politics. It's just treating everyone who is a minority with respect and not passing laws that restrict their ability to be treated equally. You'd think that wouldn't be a big deal or any an issue. But apparently it's a huge controversy.

 

[DimesDan]

So a man being harassed for being a nurse is not really a victim because nursing is seen as women's work, therefore lesser, so if he catches hell from someone, it's really the women who are the victims?

My dad was a male nurse for about twenty years from the late 70's and apart from all the "interesting" anecdotes he told me, there were a few because of it not being seen as a "mans" job, where doctors and other staff actively belittled him. As time went on, attitudes did change.

Of course nobody is saying that oppression isn't going on. A lot of people are working toward equality.

Indeed, I was somewhat active in the Yes campaign of the referendum that occurred last week even though I couldn't vote in it. Three years ago, there was a referendum for same sex marriage here and it was, mandated by the people, legalised which I thought was brilliant, where as as soon as the EU referendum result was revealed two years ago, Mrs-Dimesdan and I decided to leave the UK and move to Ireland because of the sheer difference between the two, The Republic of Ireland seems progressive (yes like all developed countries it has it's faults) compared to a more insular United Kingdom.

I volunteer my time as a Scout Leader with Scouting Ireland, I've donated food to foodbanks (back in the UK) and volunteered a couple of times in a homeless shelter here in Dublin and donated clothes for "The Jungle" in Calais which in my own way is helping others and using my privilege for good.

I have also never voted, nor considered voting for the Conservative Party in the UK, in the four General Elections I have been able to vote in so far (2005, 2010, 2015 and 2017) I have voted Labour and Lib Dem (which was a mistake given what happened.) I was pretty active the Student Union at my first stint at University and marched against University fees and a few other things.

But we don't have to wallow in personal guilt for the sins of our ancestors as a requirement.

I do not get up in the morning and think, "I have white skin, therefore I am a horrible person and have to work to mitigate centuries of oppression of non-white people."

Why should I? I, Timewalker, am not one of the people who committed those acts, nor do I support those acts, past or present. When I speak out against the Reformacons' attempts to disenfranchise marginal groups of people, I include the indigenous people because they are among the five groups who were targeted: Seniors, aboriginals, students, disabled, and homeless.

Precisely. I'll repeat what I said earlier:

For everything that the British Empire did through history, both the good and the bad, I don't feel particularly responsible for what was done, nor particularly guilty for what was done (because it all occurred a long time before I was born) but I am aware of it, especially given my nationality, living where I am and being married to an Irish woman.

 

[Caleuche]

I'm not sure guilt is the emotion I would go for. I think empathy or compassion. which I think might be what Marynator is going for. Guilt is a negative emotion that makes people feel bad and is linked to much to the concept of punishment.

I think this is the main problem with this argument. The use of the word 'guilt' in an incorrect context.
Guilt is the feeling of regret we get when WE have deliberately hurt someone with our actions or our words (remorse being when we hurt someone accidently).

I am British, during the British Empire, Africans were taken into slavery and sold as commodities, Ireland and India were occupied, igneous people murdered to make room for colonies and plantations, cultural artifacts were stolen for our museums. I was not a party to any of these actions, but I am aware of them (being half-Irish, very aware of some of them) and the attitudes that lead to them occurring (either selfish, unthinking capitalism or a misplaced belief that one was 'enlightening the natives') and all I can do now is try to correct those who to this day may still hold those beliefs today.
As for my emotions to these actions, I do not feel guilt, but I am uncomfortable about the fact that they happened and wish they hadn't - this is a sense of disappointment, not guilt. I think, @auntiehill phrased it well that it is a heighted 'awareness of injustice'. I am also aware these actions lead to my country being one of the most economically advanced and richest countries in the world. I don't see this as white privilege, but more an unfair historical advantage, and yes, there is a responsibility to help correct that unfair advantage. However all the countries once ruled by Britain are now free to pursue whatever course they wish to do, and while some countries have prospered or function reasonably well (Canada, Australia, India), whilst others (Zimbabwe) haven't. So on the global scale, I see the argument of white privilege as less a good argument for the successes of the Western Nations and more an attempt by those countries who haven't done so well to shift reasonability for their poor/corrupt internal management/governance on to someone else.

I also recognise that despite the Empire, Britain has done good in this world, it created the industrial revolution, founded Canada, New Zealand, United States, unified India, invented the parliamentary democracy, the television, the World Wide Web, the telephone, the jet engine and cricket. I am proud of my nation for these things (especially the cricket). No amount of white guilt over damage past is going to take those achievements away from us nor should it be allowed to.

Oh dear, you're posting a very touch subject? When you're aware of concepts of privilege, you'll know there's no such thing as racism against white people, just like there's no such thing as sexism against males.

There is racism against whites - usually by other whites (treatment of Jews and the Celts throughout history), but you do get things like the removal of the farms from the whites in Zimbabwe by the 'War Veterans'. This could be argued to be removal of historical privilege, but the way it was done and the rhetoric surrounding it was very much anti-white racism.

It's important to point out the difference between guilt and responsibility.

White people - indeed, any people - are not guilty of the crimes committed by their forebears, nor should they be made to feel guilty about it. However there is the responsibility of learning from these atrocities and making sure it never happens again.

Dead on. It's this incorrect usage of the word 'guilt' again.

I'm saying that other cultures' past or current crimes don't excuse or affect our own, right?

I don't think anyone is arguing that they do. What people are saying isn't they shouldn't be forgotten, minimalised or sidelined to make it look like white people are the only people capable of doing wrong.

Guilt is not just about past crimes, but also you and I enjoy privilege right now that others don't, and we need to feel guilt for that...?

No, we don't. We need to put it right. Action, not emotion. This is the original posters point, we sit about moping about the past mistakes of our ancestors (or the current ones which are nothing to do with us), instead of looking how far we have come. We've had a Black President of the USA, Canada/India/UK/Germany/Iceland/Australia/NZ, etc, etc have all had female heads of governments, Weinstein is on his way to prison, men are being encouraged to question their toxic behaviours, gay marriage and adoption is almost universal in the Western countries. This is what achieves progress and equality, people getting angry about injustice or limits imposed on them and saying 'I'm going to change that'. It isn't people feeling sad for something historical (or even current) that they had no input into. We need to celebrate this energy, not tell people reasons to feel bad about what/who they are. That's the same tactic as those who try to stop equality from happening, its changed from things like 'you should be ashamed to be gay, its disgusting' to its 'you should feel guilty for being white, its historically criminal' and as a white, gay man, I don't see a lot between the liberals who use this tactic and the conservatives. Its used in both cases to put someone in their place and to tear them down.

You don't need to actively seek privilege in order to benefit from it. To those who enjoy it, it is often invisible to them.

This is also true and it can be quite jarring to those who suddenly become aware of the privilege when it is pointed out to them. Generally, it seems to cause confusion, frustration and anger. Its why taking an aggressive approach to equality will only backfire. Confrontation only breeds more confrontation which turns to deep seated acrimony and resentment on both sides. People need to be made aware of privilege slowly and carefully.

Reverse sexism is just as much a myth. Sexism and racism require power, which women and minorities don't have.

It could be argued that political correctness, social pressure campaigns, positive discrimination and victimhood give them that power.

Anyway, I've started to rant a bit and been ninija'ed by Dimesdan whilst typing so I think I'll leave it there for now.

 

[DimesDan]

I am British, during the British Empire, Africans were taken into slavery and sold as commodities, Ireland and India were occupied, igneous people murdered to make room for colonies and plantations, cultural artifacts were stolen for our museums. I was not a party to any of these actions, but I am aware of them (being half-Irish, very aware of some of them) and the attitudes that lead to them occurring (either selfish, unthinking capitalism or a misplaced belief that one was 'enlightening the natives') and all I can do now is try to correct those who to this day may still hold those beliefs today.

Because I am fully British (and have a very RP accent), my Ventures (in a banterish way) do like to remind me of all the crap the Empire did to the island of Ireland over the years. And Mrs-Dimesdan does like to point out when we're out about where certain acts were carried out in the city centre, including where the giant spike is now was Nelsons Pillar.

I also recognise that despite the Empire, Britain has done good in this world, it created the industrial revolution, invented the parliamentary democracy, the television, the internet, the telephone, the jet engine and cricket. I am proud of my nation for these things (especially the cricket). No amount of white guilt over damage past is going to take those achievements away from us nor should it be allowed to.

I would argue that cricket would be a negative point against the Empire.

I also read recently (I think it was a QI fact of the day) that when slavery was abolished in the UK (and maybe the empire itself) paid for the slaves to be freed which cost half of the overall budget, which however you look at it, isn't a small amount.

There is racism against whites - usually by other whites (treatment of Jews and the Celts throughout history),

Exactly. It's only a few decades ago that signs that said "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" appeared in pub windows and the like.

I don't think anyone is arguing that they do. What people are saying isn't they shouldn't be forgotten, minimalised or sidelined to make it look like white people are the only people capable of doing wrong.

Indeed. Rwanda of twenty years ago, Sudan of a few years ago and what is occurring now in Myanmar springs to mind.

Anyway, I've started to rant a bit and been ninija'ed by Dimesdan whilst typing so I think I'll leave it there for now.

Don't worry about it.

 

[Caleuche]

Because I am fully British (and have a very RP accent), my Ventures (in a banterish way) do like to remind me of all the crap the Empire did to the island of Ireland over the years. And Mrs-Dimesdan does like to point out when we're out about where certain acts were carried out in the city centre, including where the giant spike is now was Nelsons Pillar.

Every time England play Ireland in the Six Nations, my Dad brings up the fact that why this is happening in the Aviva, not Croke Park anymore because of...

I would argue that cricket would be a negative point against the Empire.

Name another sport which brings England's White and Asian populations together so well. Usually to support different teams, but still...

 

[Refuge]

Every time England play Ireland in the Six Nations, my Dad brings up the fact that we this is happening in the Aviva, not Croke Park anymore because of...

Name another sport which brings England's White and Asian populations together so well. Usually to support different teams, but still...

You know speaking of sport... The All Blacks. Say no more.

 

[Timewalker]

I think this is the main problem with this argument. The use of the word 'guilt' in an incorrect context.
Guilt is the feeling of regret we get when WE have deliberately hurt someone with our actions or our words (remorse being when we hurt someone accidently).

Yep. I feel guilt for the frog and earthworm I had to dissect in Grade 10. Back in 1977 there was no such thing here as opting out of such assignments for reasons of conscience, so if I wanted to pass the course I had to go through with it. I actually did take an F in junior high for refusing to make an insect collection, but high school has higher stakes and I couldn't afford any Fs.

But I've made sure ever since then that any science courses I take do not involve killing innocent animals.

As for guilt for things my ancestors did on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean centuries ago... that's on them. Not me. All I can do is try my best to make sure I don't repeat their deeds or support anyone else who thinks repeating those deeds would be a great idea.

igneous people

I realize this is an accident and I don't mean anything in a denigrating way, but I had a giggle at this.

I also recognise that despite the Empire, Britain has done good in this world, it created the industrial revolution, founded Canada, New Zealand, United States...

Not quite. What you say may be true of New Zealand; I don't know enough of that country's history to have an opinion on it. The Americans, of course, had their war of independence.

But Canada's European founders were both English and French, and the reason our independence was negotiated with England was because England, not France, won the Battle on the Plains of Abraham. If it had been the other way around, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Mojochi]

I think this is the main problem with this argument. The use of the word 'guilt' in an incorrect context.
Guilt is the feeling of regret we get when WE have deliberately hurt someone with our actions or our words (remorse being when we hurt someone accidently).

I'd been trying to say that as well. It may be a semantic argument, but words like guilt & racism have specific meaning, & people undermine their position by rebranding them to mean what they want. Besides, in all frankness, anyone who is underprivileged, is by far less interested in our compassion, empathy or remorse, than they are in things that actually accomplish something, such that they be less underprivileged.

To use @Marynator's allegory again, they just want into the castle & at some of the grain they've been denied by your ancestors. They really don't give a crap how YOU feel about it, because, who gives a crap about YOUR feelings? People are starving. It's not about you.

 

[Caleuche]

Not quite. What you say may be true of New Zealand; I don't know enough of that country's history to have an opinion on it. The Americans, of course, had their war of independence.

But Canada's European founders were both English and French, and the reason our independence was negotiated with England was because England, not France, won the Battle on the Plains of Abraham. If it had been the other way around, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I did consider writing 'founded the colonies that became the United States of America and Canada' but didn't like the flow of the words, so I decided to keep it short. I entirely forgot the French were also involved. My apologies to them and all Canadians (especially French-Speaking ones)!
As for my spelling mistake, I of course meant ' indigenous peoples'. That's the problem with taking the first word that the spellcheck offers.

I'd been trying to say that as well. It may be a semantic argument, but words like guilt & racism have specific meaning, & people undermine their position by rebranding them to mean what they want.

That's why when the words 'racism' and 'bigotry' were used in ways I didn't recognise I asked for clarity. The exact meaning of words has a great effect on peoples understanding. As @Jayson pointed out 'guilt' to many people means 'blame' and if you start blaming people for things they don't feel they are personally responsible for (such as slavery), you don't get their understanding or sympathy, you get their anger or upset. This makes it harder to get your argument across, and the number of liberal causes that have been undermined by this fact are numerous.

Besides, in all frankness, anyone who is underprivileged, is by far less interested in our compassion, empathy or remorse, than they are in things that actually accomplish something, such that they be less underprivileged.

To use @Marynator's allegory again, they just want into the castle & at some of the grain they've been denied by your ancestors. They really don't give a crap how YOU feel about it, because, who gives a crap about YOUR feelings? People are starving. It's not about you.

Hard, cold truth. For everyone at the end of the day, its all about survival of yourself and your family. 'White Guilt may be all well and good, but what do I, the minority have to show for it?' Like I said, earlier, I'm gay. I don't really care if someone feels guilty about the treatment of Alan Turning or the passing of Section 28 into British law, what I want to know is will I be supported when I come out that person, would they turn up at my (hypothetical, future) wedding if invited, would they give me an equal shot at promotion when it comes up? In other words - only what action will be taken now is to ensure equality now is relevant, I have no use for hand-wringing over the past - it provides me with nothing.

 

[BillJ]

I don't feel guilty. I'm not sure it is a productive emotion for something I had no part of. All I can do is try to be better than my parents, and try to teach my kids to be better than me.

 

[WraithDukat]

I've checked my white male privilege many times, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe it's because I'm not rich or elite in anyway, maybe if I was it would be there. But as a working class person it isn't there.

A friend of mine applied to be a Firemen, he was basically told 'no white men need apply', I'll remind him to check his privilege the next time I see him.

If i see someone on social media use the term 'gammon' I immediately block them as they're being racist. If I called a black person 'steak' or 'chocolate' I would be called racist (and rightly so) so why should I accept white people being called 'gammon'?

 

[BillJ]

I've checked my white male privilege many times, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe it's because I'm not rich or elite in anyway, maybe if I was it would be there. But as a working class person it isn't there.

It is there. By being the majority, you enjoy a privileged status. Do you constantly have police looking at you like you've committed a crime?

 

[Marynator]

I feel people are misunderstanding guilt, it's not about self-hatred or anything like that, or wallowing in pity. Feeling guilt is about empathy, and you certainly do need emotion before action. Empathy, not sympathy, drives action. Guilt's totally the right word if it makes you and I feel uncomfortable. Comfort prevents change, right? Oh by no means is white guilt supposed to be about hating yourself or feeling you should be punished, it's about recognizing white privilege we all benefit from and feeling pain other people are suffering from because of racism.

White privilege isn't absolute, heavens no, everyone experiences it differently, if you're a poor person you obviously aren't benefiting like rich upper class are.

I can understand I've become a bit of a lightning rod here, I'm sorry for making you all uncomfortable, creating anger is not my intention, but I believe it's very important to combat white denial, which I'm so very sad to say I really see so much of here, I'm deeply saddened, I'd have thought a Star Trek message board would be more woke. I don't hate my own whiteness, and I don't ask any of you to hate yourselves because you're white, I am deeply sorry for not articulating my thoughts well last night.

My biggest fear from this thread was how it turns into white people patting ourselves on our backs saying "it's okay, you and I aren't doing anything wrong, we're victims", and I am really very bothered by that, and I felt someone had to speak up against white denial. My reason for not liking opposition to the word "guilt" because to me it feels like we're saying "As a white person I don't like feeling guilty, it makes me feel uncomfortable, so I'm going to change it to something that doesn't upset me", and I feel that's totally white privilege right there, do you see what I mean? It's what we do, we use our power to change the conversation away from our own discomfort to something we like so we don't have to really face our advantage and really do something about racism.

Please take care.

 

[BillJ]

My biggest fear from this thread was how it turns into white people patting ourselves on our backs saying "it's okay, you and I aren't doing anything wrong, we're victims", and I am really very bothered by that...

The only person I'm a victim of, is myself.