The Dismal Frontier (Thinkpiece on Discovery, Star Trek and Utopian Science Fiction)

[CorporalCaptain]

The Voyager episodes I really enjoyed were mostly Borg-related. I don't think it added anything special to the franchise beyond those.

I disagree. In much the way that some of the better DS9 episodes play like TNG-dark, some of the better VOY episodes play like TNG++, which is to say iteratively-improved-and/or-refined TNG.

"Prototype" comes to mind as an example of good TNG++, and that particular episode also suggests an analogous TOS++ style. B'Elanna is quite easily seen as the "Data" of the episode, and the robot proxy war of the big reveal is exactly the sort of thing that Kirk typically would have fixed were he not too late, as Janeway was.

Then there are straight-up great TNG-dark-style episodes like "The Thaw."

YMMV, of course.

 

[BillJ]

Then there are straight-up great TNG-dark-style episodes like "The Thaw."

Enjoyed "The Thaw", though "Prototype" was pretty dull.

 

[eschaton]

IMHO, the best of Voyager was Living Witness, Blink of an Eye, Remember, Before and After, Mortal Coil, Barge of the Dead, Lineage, and Someone to Watch Over Me. There were other good episodes of VOY, but these were the only ones off the top of my head I found emotionally moving in any way.

 

[Mudd]

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[CorporalCaptain]

IMHO, the best of Voyager was Living Witness, Blink of an Eye, Remember, Before and After, Mortal Coil, Barge of the Dead, Lineage, and Someone to Watch Over Me. There were other good episodes of VOY, but these were the only ones off the top of my head I found emotionally moving in any way.

I think "Real Life" was outstanding, offering a nice deconstruction of the holodeck episode template as well as a critique of Gene's vision-style "evolved humans."

 

[eschaton]

I think "Real Life" was outstanding, offering a nice deconstruction of the holodeck episode template as well as Gene's vision-style "evolved humans."

The A story was great. But the B plot from that episode was another garbage spatial anomaly. I mean, I know why Trek started the A/B plot thing - it was common, if not required under contract, to have to figure out how to use the entire main cast in an episode, and it was less stupid to come up with a throwaway second plot than to shoehorn unneeded characters in (as they did in DIS in many episodes with Tilly). That said, I really wish Trek would only use the characters to the extent the story needs them. it's one reason why the DS9 "fake guest stars" like Garak, Martok, and Nog are beloved - they only brought them in as needed for story purposes.

 

[Mudd]

It was not required under contract.

 

[eschaton]

It was not required under contract.

I know (I said so in my post), but it was standard practice. I am guessing because main cast were generally paid regardless of appearance, which meant (aside from Cirroc Lofton, for some reason) they tried to fit them in as many episodes as possible.

 

[pst]

I am guessing because main cast were generally paid regardless of appearance, which meant (aside from Cirroc Lofton, for some reason) they tried to fit them in as many episodes as possible.

actors get antsy when they don't get material. see: robert beltran

 

[eschaton]

actors get antsy when they don't get material. see: robert beltran

I thought Beltran's gripe wasn't just that he didn't get enough lines, but he didn't get good ones. Certainly Chakotay got his fair share of "character focus" episodes (usually two per season) but they tended to be mediocre - and I didn't ever have the idea this was because he couldn't act (like Garret Wang). They just gave him very, very little to work with.

Indeed, I'm pretty sure I remember reading quotes from Beltran basically saying he didn't see the point of showing up for work if his only lines were going to be belting off some technobabble about the crisis of the week.

 

[BillJ]

IMHO, the best of Voyager was Living Witness...

I missed this episode first run, and it took years before I finally saw it. I had heard how great it was and was really disappointed at how run-of-the-mill the episode is. I'm not sure I'd rank it in the top thirty Voyager episodes.

 

[pst]

I thought Beltran's gripe wasn't just that he didn't get enough lines, but he didn't get good ones. Certainly Chakotay got his fair share of "character focus" episodes (usually two per season) but they tended to be mediocre - and I didn't ever have the idea this was because he couldn't act (like Garret Wang). They just gave him very, very little to work with.

Indeed, I'm pretty sure I remember reading quotes from Beltran basically saying he didn't see the point of showing up for work if his only lines were going to be belting off some technobabble about the crisis of the week.

yeah he had a lot of gripes. and i've also heard him say he liked getting paid to not come in. but i think that's after years of dissatisfaction with the material he was given.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The A story was great. But the B plot from that episode was another garbage spatial anomaly. I mean, I know why Trek started the A/B plot thing - it was common, if not required under contract, to have to figure out how to use the entire main cast in an episode, and it was less stupid to come up with a throwaway second plot than to shoehorn unneeded characters in (as they did in DIS in many episodes with Tilly). That said, I really wish Trek would only use the characters to the extent the story needs them. it's one reason why the DS9 "fake guest stars" like Garak, Martok, and Nog are beloved - they only brought them in as needed for story purposes.

I agree with the boldfaced. Multiple plot threads in a single episode can be fine, but in TNG and VOY one of the plot threads (sometimes A, sometimes B, and sometimes both) tended to be quite banal, and for lack of better words pure filler or pure formula.

 

[Gepard]

I agree with the boldfaced. Multiple plot threads in a single episode can be fine, but in TNG and VOY one of the plot threads (sometimes A, sometimes B, and sometimes both) tended to be quite banal, and for lack of better words pure filler or pure formula.

Thinking over my favorite TNG and VOY episodes, I realized they're either entirely devoid of the A/B story structure, or if they do have it they tie the two together in some way (beyond linking the two at the climax).

 

[eschaton]

I missed this episode first run, and it took years before I finally saw it. I had heard how great it was and was really disappointed at how run-of-the-mill the episode is. I'm not sure I'd rank it in the top thirty Voyager episodes.

IMHO of course, but it's all about the discussion in the last five minutes or so of the episode between Quarren and The Doctor about what history really is, the consideration of whether it's better to tell a white lie about the past if it means stability in the present. I don't think Voyager ever handled an "issue" episode with such thoughtfulness. And then the epilogue where you see that everything reached a shiny happy Trek ending generations later. It's certainly the most TOS-ish episode that Voyager ever produced.

 

[The Wormhole]

Voyager was better than I remembered with some really good episodes. Though it was riddled with massive inconsistency and the bad episodes were some of the worst Trek ever produced prior to Discovery.

When I've re-watched Voyager in recent years, I've found the cast to be a lot stronger and more engaging than I remembered from first run, and this helps elevate even the rather average episodes.

 

[BillJ]

When I've re-watched Voyager in recent years, I've found the cast to be a lot stronger and more engaging than I remembered from first run, and this helps elevate even the rather average episodes.

I think the cast was good, but the writing let them down more often than not. Much like a certain show on CBS All-Access.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think the cast was good, but the writing let them down more often than not.

Well, yes, but they actually did a pretty impressive job with what they were given. Robert Duncan McNeil, Roxann Dawson and Tim Russ are very underrated, IMO. Ethan Phillips could deliver a solid performance when he wasn't being a goof.

 

[Refuge]

Looking at the title of this thread and present discussion it pretty much emphasises why I personally appreciate other Trek. Trek needs a sense of family and camaraderie which other Trek has achieved. Kirk would crawl over broken glass for Spock. Harry and Chakotay would die for their loved ones which you felt their crew were to them. You are left with a sense they not only care for each other but enjoy the company of each other. I get Discovery is new and bonds (even as a viewer) take time, that it has been a war setting but I haven't seen much in the way of these characters being likeable. Saru might be the only one I felt an actual sense of pathos for and growth. When he defended himself against mirror Georgiou's taunts I felt a little proud of him - like I cared. I don't give a rat's arse about any of the others.

Discovery got off on a bad footing with Michael and the Shenzhou. We never got to establish a liking for that crew and Michael was willing to use them and lie to them during her mutiny attempt. We saw her and Georgiou bond and then immediately it meant nothing. By the time we see Discovery the star ship I can't say I liked the crew. Lorca was an egomaniac at his best in the dark. All about the dark. Stamets was arrogant, Landry was aggressive, Michael and Saru resentful. It fitted when we heard Lorca had blown up his last command. I know that story was a plot reveal for prime and mirror Lorca later on, but it still left an impression of dog eat dog.

We have had glimpses of the crew acting as a team and maybe the select few who got their medals had a group hug after Michael's dreary speech, but God they are a miserable bunch.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I felt that what Discovery did in its first season was handled better in the older Star Trek series. Take an example - the tenocide of an enemy species. This was handled beautifully in DS9.