It seems there is a reason for the visual reboot and the producers aren't being honest about it.

[jaime]

Propulsion methods changed between the Cage and TOS Season1?

The cage is basically apocryphal anyway. If it didn’t turn up in The Menagerie, it didn’t happen. Even then, it’s possibly just illusion edited by the Talosians, they outright say as much on screen for the most part. Which is good...I don’t think Trek would have caught on as much, especially internationally, if it had followed straight from The Cage.

 

[lawman]

Early TOS could be a confusing mess of contradictions. Even trying to explain it away half a century later is fraught with land mines.

One thing that bugs me that they consistently did incorrectly (and it appears in the dialogue just quoted!) is use "quadrant" to refer to something other than one-quarter of the galaxy. It's like nobody involved understood what the word actually means! Getting that clarified is one of the relatively few TNG retcons I'm actually happy about. Whenever I hear "quadrant" in TOS, I have to mentally substitute "sector."

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the planet Gothos was located in "Quadrant 904" some 900 light years from Earth. No matter how you look at that it doesn't make sense, unless prior to the TOS Movie Era circa 2293 there were hundreds of little quadrants across explored space and four to each sector or region.

And we know that's not the case because as early as 2153 on ENT ("Regeneration") we know that the Alpha-Beta-Gamma-Delta mapping system already exists. It's not even a debate.

 

[Jesse1066]

Early TNG episodes used the word quadrant "wrong" also, since the quadrant system as we know it wasn't established until "The Price" in season 3.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yep, in 1990. The first Kirk-era story to use the new quadrant classification system was TUC.

 

[fireproof78]

but we're not going to get that from these people.

Why should we get it any way? It would not settle the debate, it would not end the discussion and it would not be the final word because CBS isn't allowed to have the final word on anything.

 

[AlanC9]

The cage is basically apocryphal anyway. If it didn’t turn up in The Menagerie, it didn’t happen.

The time warp and time barrier lines did turn up in The Menagerie, FWIW.

 

[cooleddie74]

If their product actually lined up with their pronouncements a lot more of us would be willing to accept their word on face value. Rick Berman, Brannon Braga and the old Trek production crew may have cranked out their share of crap but at least they could keep their corporate stories straight.

 

[Noname Given]

How so, since they never use the term? I'd like to understand your reasoning.

From TOS - "The Cage":

Cpt. Pike: "...our Time Warp...Factor Seven."

 

[cooleddie74]

For the record I do like how Pike stands for the entire warp jump to Talos IV. He basically stands right behind the helm console for the entire duration of the journey. Now THAT'S dedicated to the mission.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

it’s possibly just illusion edited by the Talosians, they outright say as much on screen for the most part

It's an illusion, but it's not "just" an illusion. Pike confirmed that events were being seen as they happened thirteen years ago. If you believe that Pike's confirmation is an illusion, then there's no point in positing that anything actually happened, as whatever you think happened "could just be an illusion." That would utterly destroy story, so it's as good as a reductio ad absurdum for drama.

Mendez's presence in the shuttle and on the ship was an illusion, the events of thirteen years ago were projected onto the viewscreen, a current feed of what was happening was projected back to Starbase 11, and communication was possible with the Talosians, but everything else was exactly as it seemed, or otherwise anything goes. In other words, what we see on the viewscreen is what happened thirteen years ago.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

From TOS - "The Cage":

Cpt. Pike: "...our Time Warp...Factor Seven."

Yes, when I said "never" I meant besides in "The Cage" and of course also in "The Menagerie." I'd assumed that was clear from the context.

 

[Rahul]

One thing that bugs me that they consistently did incorrectly (and it appears in the dialogue just quoted!) is use "quadrant" to refer to something other than one-quarter of the galaxy. It's like nobody involved understood what the word actually means! Getting that clarified is one of the relatively few TNG retcons I'm actually happy about. Whenever I hear "quadrant" in TOS, I have to mentally substitute "sector."

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the planet Gothos was located in "Quadrant 904" some 900 light years from Earth. No matter how you look at that it doesn't make sense, unless prior to the TOS Movie Era circa 2293 there were hundreds of little quadrants across explored space and four to each sector or region.

And we know that's not the case because as early as 2153 on ENT ("Regeneration") we know that the Alpha-Beta-Gamma-Delta mapping system already exists. It's not even a debate.

Honestly, the use of "quadrant" in TOS never bothered me. Yes, they should have used "sector" instead. But we never knew how exactly their naming worked - could have been that they split up the Federation territory in 4 "quadrants", and then used that unit for the rest of the galaxy as well.

In fact, I think the "modern" use of quadrants (as in, split the galaxy up in 4 equal parts) is much more non-sensical. Our galaxy is spiral galaxy, with many "arms" growing out of it. Parts of the same "arm" would be much closer connected than different "arms" that are in the same "quadrant" - there would be millions of light years of entirely void space between them. Also, the writers don't seem to be sure about where the quadrant lines actually are: The klingons and Romulans are sometimes Alpha quadrant powers, sometimes Beta quadrant ones.

That being said: I think the quadrant system as it is now kinda' works as well. Mostly because of DS9 and VOY, where it was an extremely easy way to show how "far away" they are. So I think it should definitely stay in place. But I just don't care about TOS not using it the way it later was.

Ohter things to complain about: Why is Earth sector 001? The Federation shouldn't entirely be human-focused...
(I'm still okay with that - it seems kinda' intuitive for new viewers)

 

[cultcross]

there would be millions of light years of entirely void space between them.

The galaxy is about 100,000 light years across.

 

[BillJ]

The cage is basically apocryphal anyway.

It is pretty much all the prior material is apocryphal after the latest Klingon redesign. Roddenberry chalked up TOS as a dramatization in the TMP novelization, I think that rationale is driving Discovery.

 

[jaime]

It is pretty much all the prior material is apocryphal after the latest Klingon redesign. Roddenberry chalked up TOS as a dramatization in the TMP novelization, I think that rationale is driving Discovery.

The one thing I do like about DSC is that it fits in very well with TMP and everything after it tbh. The Klingon stuff...is horrendous. Nothing a couple of wigs and some decent writearounds couldn’t fix. On the enterprise herself...well...I am not particularly attached to TOS, and he’s find it dated...on the other hand, it’s a part of the tapestry which DSC wants so hard to be new part of. To an extent genes little comments in Kirks thoughts may help, sure, but on the other hand....
It’s a tough one, and in terms of the redesign, yeah, the pylons should have been closer to TOS, and maybe less of a taper on things..nacelles, shuttle bay etc...I may not be the greatest fan of the original design, but, the redesign adds new things that look dated, rather than ‘fixing’ the old (when I see a good model of the TOS design, I always dislike it if the panelling is too...round ...on the engineering hull. I don’t want it to look like a soft drinks can, with huge visible welds on ringed sections on the hull. But apart from that, I like the design well enough.) and if it ain’t broke...
There’s certainly a way of dealing with all this, in the shows lifespan, but I think having the e around a while seems a really bad idea, and sort of messes with many things. TATV pissed people off by having the TNG crew take over, and here we are at the end of series one, about to possibly pull the same stunt with a pseudo TOS crew, and may end up diminishing both series as a result.

 

[Nyotarules]

That novel has basically made me give up on Trek lit. Am hanging in there, read the last Voyager, but I can see me totally giving up because of that novel. The ds9 corner has been on life support anyway, but it’s all just spiralling.

Pretend it was all a holodeck programme that Bashir is stuck in

 

[The Wormhole]

TATV pissed people off by having the TNG crew take over,

TATV pissed people off because it was supposed to be Enterprise's finale and instead we got a TNG episode. Had it been done as an ordinary episode, the backlash would likely have lessened by half.

 

[Horizons96]

the writers don't seem to be sure about where the quadrant lines actually are: The klingons and Romulans are sometimes Alpha quadrant powers, sometimes Beta quadrant ones.

I always assumed that the Klingons and Romulans were described as Alpha Quadrant powers because of how close they were to the border. Even though they were in the Beta Quadrant, their influence and presence was enough to qualify them as big players in Alpha Quadrant affairs.

 

[cooleddie74]

Maps show that most of the Klingon and Romulan Star Empires lay inside the Beta Quadrant but sections of each spill over into the Alpha, making them Alpha Quadrant powers.