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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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But its so much easier to grant an "implicit license" - i.e. The Guidelines; than it is to actually carve out fully legal licensing, which probably costs a lot more time and money to enforce.
Not to mention that legitimate licensee's would get pissed that fan films suddenly have real standing.
The Guidelines work because all CBS is doing is acknowledging that, legally speaking, you have a safe-haven from enforcement.
But in theory they can yank the rug at any time with zero repercussions.
Although TBH, I'd prefer if they'd relax the run-time and "series" requirements to be a little looser.
 
I also think you're grossly underestimating the value of fan engagement. I think it's easier to maintain a fan base if your franchise allows some sort of cultural participation, and that's what fan films and other fan works provide. Without a sense of participation, people feel less connected to the franchise and less likely to continue with it in the future.

I think you're grossly overestimating how popular fan films are. The population of the United States is 325.7 million people. Based on the average number of tickets sold to the last Star Trek film (domestically only), Box Office Mojo suggests the film sold 18,663,700 tickets (estimated). That's less than 6% of the U.S. population (and that's being awfully generous to Beyond, as I stated above, that does not indicate the actual number of viewers, just tickets sold). Consider the first episode of Discovery, the latest Nielsen ratings info we have for Star Trek, and that is 9.5 million viewers, or a little less than 3% of the population. Now, consider Axanar's views. Again, I'm being very generous to Axanar by suggesting that it has 3.4 million unique viewers (it really only has 3.4 million views). That's not only just 1% of the population, but its only 18% of the amount of tickets Beyond sold. Or 35.8% of the viewership on CBS of "The Vulcan Hello." I'm not suggesting that fan engagement isn't important. But what I'm saying is, at the end of the day, Star Trek fans are a small part of the population. And fan films are a fraction of that small part. Its a subset of a subset. And the moment that's put into perspective, you realize how few people there are out there that actually care. Which is why I can't ever buy the argument "Axanar is what real fans want." Because the numbers prove that is totally incorrect. When the audience is that small, why in God's name would a big corporation like CBS care? Key point: they (yes, Paramount, actually) are making money on the Kelvin films. They have the correct formula there for them as of 2018 (or 2016 if you have to).

Fan films? They're not going to license them. So again, why would CBS care when its proven that its a subset of a subset?
 
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Then how do you explain people donating over a million dollars, just to see any old new and more Star Trek?

According to Axamonitor... There were 7,660 donors bringing in $574,434 from the Indiegogo campaign. Looking at the Axanar Kickstarter campaign, there are 8,548 donors bringing in $638,471. Not taking into consideration any duplicate donors, you have 16,208 donors. You’re talking thousands of people versus millions. It’s a huge difference when you’re talking about fan engagement. Fans will go out and find these things. Advertising doesn’t matter. If they are curious enough about Star Trek, they’ll try to find it. And frankly, CBS, if they did decide to license fan films, aren’t going to do a lot of advertising. If they do, I can’t imagine that big of an increase in viewers or donors for these things.

Please note: my links go to Axamonitor pages about the fundraisers not the fundraisers themselves. Don’t want to break the rules. ;)
 
But this is not about the corporate bottom line, I think it's more about what people would rather see, IMO.

But it is about the bottom line. Because 15,000 people donated to Axanar. Millions paid to see Beyond. That shows what people would rather see. You want to see more of Axanar like stuff and that’s fine! But you can’t suggest the general population do when the numbers are against you.

I don’t mean to offend but I’m not sure why this is so hard to comprehend.
 
What the general population likes often does not impress me. What's not to understand about that? No offense.

No one ever said you did. You can like Axanar or enjoy Mongolian Throat Singing. I really don’t care. But you’ve brought up several times this idea that raising a million dollars makes Axanar something super special. It’s not. It’s impressive, sure. But at the end of the day, these are 15,000 people who donated to vapor ware. They wanted a product. It never materialized. Their money was wasted. I feel bad for many of them except for those who continue to support Alec Peters financially or otherwise.

All I’m saying is that the fan film model is not as popular as some fans make them out to be. You like them? Cool! Me too! But I also know I’m in a subset of a subset when it comes to that stuff.
 
The donating doesn't make it super special. It makes itself super special or not. I think fans are responding to getting something different and in their eyes maybe better than what they're getting on tv and in the movies. I just think people in the know (yea, fans) want something better is all.
 
The donating doesn't make it super special. It makes itself super special or not. I think fans are responding to getting something different and in their eyes maybe better than what they're getting on tv and in the movies. I just think people in the know (yea, fans) want something better is all.

Art is subjective though. God knows I have brought this argument up dozens of times on TrekBBS, but one man’s trash is another man’s treasure. Who am I to judge what Star Trek you like? There are over 700 episodes, and dammit if we all can’t agree on which are the best. Sure, lots of people like The Wrath of Khan. Me? Its fine, but I think its overrated. A lot of people think TNG is the best series ever. I don’t think its aged that well. So, I don’t know that “better” is the correct word. Because what is “better?” Maybe “different?” I can accept that.
 
Let he who can understand, understand. Some people know the difference between great art and crap and then there are some people that appreciate crap, but now we'll never know, will we?
 
But its so much easier to grant an "implicit license" - i.e. The Guidelines; than it is to actually carve out fully legal licensing, which probably costs a lot more time and money to enforce.
The only money involved is actually writing the license. (Not sure how much that would be, though. IANAL.) They're not legally obligated to enforce their copyrights, except where it could demonstrably reduce profits from the franchise and make them vulnerable to a stockholder lawsuit. Trademarks are a different story, but they'd have to defend those anyway, so there's no real difference in that regard.
Not to mention that legitimate licensee's would get pissed that fan films suddenly have real standing.
It's possible that they may have existing licensing obligations that prevent them from doing a fan license, and in that situation, the licensee with the agreement might take a dim view of it. However, if that's not the case, I doubt most licensees would care unless there was something in the fan license that really rubbed them the wrong way. So long as CBS doesn't sue anyone, it really doesn't matter to the licensees if fan films get made with or without a license. Any effects would be the same, and I doubt a licensee could sue on CBS's behalf.
The Guidelines work because all CBS is doing is acknowledging that, legally speaking, you have a safe-haven from enforcement.
I wouldn't make that statement without advice from a copyright lawyer. Near as I can tell, there's no covenant not to sue.
But in theory they can yank the rug at any time with zero repercussions.
Exactly.
Although TBH, I'd prefer if they'd relax the run-time and "series" requirements to be a little looser.
I couldn't agree more. In fact, I think this is the single biggest problem with the Guidelines.
Argument about what?
You'll see in a moment...
And who is defining "proper"?
We both know the definition of that word is irrelevant to the context. It's an attempt to somehow "win" an argument by changing the topic and feigning outrage about how I'm somehow trying to impose my will of what is "proper" on everyone else.
But it is about the bottom line. Because 15,000 people donated to Axanar. Millions paid to see Beyond. That shows what people would rather see.
The problem is that "people" isn't the same in both contexts. The people who even knew about Axanar are diehard fans who probably already watch fan films. The people who watched Beyond are potentially everyone who say the massive advertising blitz for the movie, and could include people who don't even consider themselves fans but wanted to see the movie for any number of reasons. Thus, the people who had sufficient knowledge that would allow them to choose whether or not to contribute to Axanar are not the same number that knew about Beyond and had a choice to see the movie. If you start with smaller numbers of people who know about something, you're not going to get the same number of people buying into it even if the films are both equally good in the eyes of the people who pay for them. This is what I was trying to explain to Professor Zoom. There's no way to do a direct comparison that has any statistical validity. You're comparing two wildly different demographics as if they were the same.

Here's a hypothetical scenario to help you wrap your brains around this: What if Axanar would actually appeal more to a general audience than to fans who watch fan films? What if the percentage of Star Trek fan film watchers that actually donated under-represents what the interest would be if the general public had the same awareness of it as they did with Star Trek Beyond? (Keep in mind, this is a thought exercise. I'm not stating unequivocally that most people would prefer one over the other.)
When the audience is that small, why in God's name would a big corporation like CBS care?
First of all, CBS's policies regarding fan films don't just cover one film. You have to consider them in the aggregate, because all fan films are impacted.

Second, keep in mind that people who do watch fan films are more likely to also be involved in other aspects of fandom. Alienating your most diehard fans can result in a knock-on effect that creates greater harm to the franchise than if the same number of random people simply decided not to watch. Those fans may also migrate to the fandoms of competing properties that take eyeballs away from the franchise. They may even start such properties themselves.

So I don't think CBS knows how damaging what they're doing really is, in part because I don't think it's necessarily easy to calculate. From an economics standpoint, I'd be surprised if anyone has even done serious research. It's basically uncharted territory.
 
The problem is that "people" isn't the same in both contexts. The people who even knew about Axanar are diehard fans who probably already watch fan films. The people who watched Beyond are potentially everyone who say the massive advertising blitz for the movie, and could include people who don't even consider themselves fans but wanted to see the movie for any number of reasons. Thus, the people who had sufficient knowledge that would allow them to choose whether or not to contribute to Axanar are not the same number that knew about Beyond and had a choice to see the movie. If you start with smaller numbers of people who know about something, you're not going to get the same number of people buying into it even if the films are both equally good in the eyes of the people who pay for them. This is what I was trying to explain to Professor Zoom. There's no way to do a direct comparison that has any statistical validity. You're comparing two wildly different demographics as if they were the same.

Here's a hypothetical scenario to help you wrap your brains around this: What if Axanar would actually appeal more to a general audience than to fans who watch fan films? What if the percentage of Star Trek fan film watchers that actually donated under-represents what the interest would be if the general public had the same awareness of it as they did with Star Trek Beyond? (Keep in mind, this is a thought exercise. I'm not stating unequivocally that most people would prefer one over the other.)

First of all, CBS's policies regarding fan films don't just cover one film. You have to consider them in the aggregate, because all fan films are impacted.

Second, keep in mind that people who do watch fan films are more likely to also be involved in other aspects of fandom. Alienating your most diehard fans can result in a knock-on effect that creates greater harm to the franchise than if the same number of random people simply decided not to watch. Those fans may also migrate to the fandoms of competing properties that take eyeballs away from the franchise. They may even start such properties themselves.

So I don't think CBS knows how damaging what they're doing really is, in part because I don't think it's necessarily easy to calculate. From an economics standpoint, I'd be surprised if anyone has even done serious research. It's basically uncharted territory.

You bring up some fair points, but here's the kicker... The Star Trek franchise is not going to live and die on die-hard fans alone. You're correct in suggesting that alienating fans is not good for the base, but they've been doing that since TMP. Its just now we have the internet to talk about it! At this point, I don't think Paramount or CBS are concerned about them. I'm sorry, but its true.

First, Star Trek fans have always complained. About a lot of stuff. But yet, they keep coming back for more. To complain.

Second, they are more interested in developing something akin to Star Wars or the Marvel films. And the formula that the die-hards want back so much? Yeah, it didn't make CBS or Paramount money. So, what are they going to do? Go with something that may bring in a million or so fans? Or try to go broader? I don't necessarily like the solution, but I know what I'd do if I were in their shoes. The truth of the matter is, I;m not convinced there are enough die-hard Star Trek fans left in the world to truly break the franchise like you suggest.
 
Die hard fans are not looking to break or kill the franchise (Sir, it's dead already). They are looking to revitalize it and elevate it more into the artistic realm and level of another TOS or it's like and if that means finding another visionary out there, be he a fan or what have you, to reimagine the series, then so be it, theoretically..
 
Die hard fans are not looking to break or kill the franchise (Sir, it's dead already). They are looking to revitalize it and elevate it more into the artistic realm and level of another TOS or it's like.

That's not what I said. I said that losing the fans would not break the franchise.
 
The only money involved is actually writing the license. (Not sure how much that would be, though. IANAL.) They're not legally obligated to enforce their copyrights, except where it could demonstrably reduce profits from the franchise and make them vulnerable to a stockholder lawsuit. Trademarks are a different story, but they'd have to defend those anyway, so there's no real difference in that regard.

It's possible that they may have existing licensing obligations that prevent them from doing a fan license, and in that situation, the licensee with the agreement might take a dim view of it. However, if that's not the case, I doubt most licensees would care unless there was something in the fan license that really rubbed them the wrong way. So long as CBS doesn't sue anyone, it really doesn't matter to the licensees if fan films get made with or without a license. Any effects would be the same, and I doubt a licensee could sue on CBS's behalf.

I wouldn't make that statement without advice from a copyright lawyer. Near as I can tell, there's no covenant not to sue.

Exactly.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I think this is the single biggest problem with the Guidelines.

You'll see in a moment...

We both know the definition of that word is irrelevant to the context. It's an attempt to somehow "win" an argument by changing the topic and feigning outrage about how I'm somehow trying to impose my will of what is "proper" on everyone else.

The problem is that "people" isn't the same in both contexts. The people who even knew about Axanar are diehard fans who probably already watch fan films. The people who watched Beyond are potentially everyone who say the massive advertising blitz for the movie, and could include people who don't even consider themselves fans but wanted to see the movie for any number of reasons. Thus, the people who had sufficient knowledge that would allow them to choose whether or not to contribute to Axanar are not the same number that knew about Beyond and had a choice to see the movie. If you start with smaller numbers of people who know about something, you're not going to get the same number of people buying into it even if the films are both equally good in the eyes of the people who pay for them. This is what I was trying to explain to Professor Zoom. There's no way to do a direct comparison that has any statistical validity. You're comparing two wildly different demographics as if they were the same.

Here's a hypothetical scenario to help you wrap your brains around this: What if Axanar would actually appeal more to a general audience than to fans who watch fan films? What if the percentage of Star Trek fan film watchers that actually donated under-represents what the interest would be if the general public had the same awareness of it as they did with Star Trek Beyond? (Keep in mind, this is a thought exercise. I'm not stating unequivocally that most people would prefer one over the other.)

First of all, CBS's policies regarding fan films don't just cover one film. You have to consider them in the aggregate, because all fan films are impacted.

Second, keep in mind that people who do watch fan films are more likely to also be involved in other aspects of fandom. Alienating your most diehard fans can result in a knock-on effect that creates greater harm to the franchise than if the same number of random people simply decided not to watch. Those fans may also migrate to the fandoms of competing properties that take eyeballs away from the franchise. They may even start such properties themselves.

So I don't think CBS knows how damaging what they're doing really is, in part because I don't think it's necessarily easy to calculate. From an economics standpoint, I'd be surprised if anyone has even done serious research. It's basically uncharted territory.

But what are we arguing about?
 
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