What has to be expected is that the future female or potential matriarchy isn't a given that the female example is going to necessarily be a good one or one to aspire to. The future being female could still be a crappy future or it could be a nurturing empowered one. I guess that brings to mind the earlier reference to Cornwall where she was doing so well being that complex, strong, professionally oriented woman. An Admiral with a good job. Then she rather suffered a little bad decision making at the end. I'm kind of expecting female presence but as an earlier poster reflected, not perfection.
Star Trek Discovery: The Future is Definitely Female
- Thread starter Mirror Tuvix
- Start date
Oh I agree that with diversity or not the future being a good one is not guarnteed. To me power in itself in a corrupting thing and even if their was a change in representation that is most dominate that things like greed,ego and corruption are going to always be issues especially with how I think the American system is set up. I'm not always sure what vision of a future people actually have. I've always wondered if they just see it as the modern world, but with just more representation. My vision of a better future is a completely different world almost from what we have today. Less control from the rich,less war and to be honest a more socialist vision. If the system is still rich people bribing politicans and the same old crap then nothing truly will change. It will be interesting to see if this Blue Wave that people expect happens which will I think bring more diversity and if it happens how they will conduct themselves. Granted Trump and his ilk will still have power so not much can be changed instantly but I really want to see how they conduct the fight for what is right as opposed some of these old school sellout Democrats that we now have in power who have overstayed their welcome. How they conduct themselves I can see having a big impact on future elections. If they get elected and it turns out to be more of the same old crap then that will be a big blow IMO to the idea of anything ever really changing.
Jason
Hey Jason1, I love the way you explore ideas. It's very raw and honest.
I believe there will always be *control*. It's code for whoever is in charge and although the makeup of these controllers may be replaced the behaviour will remain. That is whether it is a patriarchy or a matriarchy it doesn't matter. There will be those on top and those not. Each and every group will state and truly believe they have the higher moral ground as they lose little bits of their soul to make it happen. The genuine of heart are the only ones that reach all.
Now given I personally am not of your country's politics and the beauty of Star Trek fantasy is hope... this question about the future being female?? Well why not showcase... nurturing? I don't mean to say men cannot nurture or that women are only capable of nurturing BUT there are strengths to each gender and empowerment from it. Ripley from Alien. Janeway from Voyager.
I read something years ago that made so much sense to me, she said something like some men are so afraid of women taking power, because he's afraid women will then treat men the same way men have treated women for centuries. So what he's afraid of is that women are men, and he's really afraid of himself.
I agree so much with @Refuge, it'd be so nice if they showed women being women, not women being men. I feel men often seem like they don't understand how to write for women, she's either a sex symbol or she's crazy, that's why we need more female writers, producers, and directors.
I agree so much with @Refuge, it'd be so nice if they showed women being women, not women being men. I feel men often seem like they don't understand how to write for women, she's either a sex symbol or she's crazy, that's why we need more female writers, producers, and directors.
It's easy to tell a male writer "just write them as people!", but then you realize you'll get closer to that with more female writers included, and that both genders still have a lot of work to do to make it right because it can't just come down to one.
But I'm just a guy, so take that for what it's worth. :P
But I'm just a guy, so take that for what it's worth. :P
So far Cornwell, Georgiou, Tilly, and L'Rell haven't come across to me as Women-As-Men. Neither does Burnham, usually. The only time I can think of -- to me -- where it felt like Burnham was being written as a man was when she was fighting with Kol to avenge Georgiou's death. I say this as someone who enjoyed the scene.
Landry also doesn't come across as if she were a man. She seems more like, and maybe this is just the actress, someone who's lived a hard life. And my god-sister is a prison guard who used to be in the army. She has to have that intimidating/tough persona, at least at work. Off-duty, she isn't like that.
Landry also doesn't come across as if she were a man. She seems more like, and maybe this is just the actress, someone who's lived a hard life. And my god-sister is a prison guard who used to be in the army. She has to have that intimidating/tough persona, at least at work. Off-duty, she isn't like that.
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This is precisely what I've been thinking. Both sexes are human, and humans, by their very nature, value control and power. That power and how it's exercised might not take on precisely the same form in a female-dominated, versus male-dominated, society, but the essence would still remain.
This means that if certain groups of males aren't afraid, they should be, because the tendency towards vindictiveness is also a very human trait. Even in Star Trek's enlightened future it's still there, though not as pronounced as in the real world.
That just got me thinking about female dominance in Trek. Maybe someone could help me out here because the first example that popped in my head was a Voyager one (sorry can't help it, it is the series I know most). "Favourite Son." The one where Harry was convinced he was an alien about to live the good life of pandering and threesomes. Only to find they just wanted his er... seed.
(I have no doubt that power will always come into play no matter who is wielding it. Human nature is in us all).
That just got me thinking about female dominance in Trek. Maybe someone could help me out here because the first example that popped in my head was a Voyager one (sorry can't help it, it is the series I know most). "Favourite Son." The one where Harry was convinced he was an alien about to live the good life of pandering and threesomes. Only to find they just wanted his er... seed.
(I have no doubt that power will always come into play no matter who is wielding it. Human nature is in us all).
There was a first season episode of TNG, "Angel One". And I think Betazed is supposed to be a Matriarchy.
Then there was an episode of TOS, "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" where the computer keeps calling Kirk "Dear..." At some point before the episode Spock said that the Enterprise was assisting a planet with a female-dominated society. In Spock's words, "They felt the computer lacked a personality, so they gave it one. Female, of course."
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@cooleddie74 has the name of it: Cygnet XIV. Thanks!
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Cygnet XIV. A planet dominated by the female population.
I think "Discovery" does a good job of not writing women as men. Even Burnham who isn't very well written never feels like a man. A Action hero cliche but not a man. I also think the key sometimes when it comes to men and women when it comes to writing hem as nurturing or strong willed or manly or whatever words that fit is that it is okay to show all types of personalities. You got a problem with your show if your men and women characters feel almost interchangeable. Not a tv show but when I watched The Hobbit" movie can anyone honestly tell me that you could tell any of them apart from each other? Even though I enjoyed "Law and Order" back in the day don't have a clue as to what really made any of the characters all that different. If you asked me what the main difference between Chris North,Jesse Martin and Benjamin Bratt I would not even know how to describe the differences. They all felt like "generic good-looking male cop."
What I always want from characters are for them to have diverse personalities. I don't look for them to be strong or nurturing. I look for them to be interesting. Personally I have a weakness for assholes and eccentrics when it comes to characters but most shows need more that. I also like it when a characters defy your expections. A character you know you should hate makes you cry. A character who seems so nice comes off as a asshole. . I think one issue though that brings out anger in people though is a shows politics or even perceived politics. I don't think most people go about their daily lives giving speeches or really even talking about social issues in everyday situations so when you see it then maybe it feels forced. Of course tv and movies do have something called symbolism but I think how well people take to is how natural it feels as being a real life thing happening in that scene. Basically if you can see the writing instead of the characters then that pisses some people off.
I do think the kind of toxic nature of the internet though sometimes makes people see things in shows that aren't their but people have become so paranoid about anything poltical you start seeing Marry Sue's and sexism and conspiracies in everything you watch. Black guy beats up a white guy in a fight. Conspiracy theory mentality kicks in and it becomes a methphor of innocent white men being taken down a peg when in reality it's just as kick-ass fight scene .People on both sides almost go into a show looking for something that is going to confirm that it's the evil SJW's at it again or more examples of the patriotachy. Frankly I don't see how writers get anything done in Hollywood anymore. Not only do you got to write a great script but you know people are going to pick it apart looking for things to get angry about. First you got to know what curses you can still use or who can use them and in what context. Characters have to be strong because emotional softness is seen as male or female weakness because the SJW's are trying to make men weak or make women not strong role models but if they are to strong they are Marry Sue's or examples of toxic masculanity. You got to be Woke but not so Woke your preachy and boring. It's impressive that anything good still gets written and I expect this is one of the reasons why comic book stuff so popuar today. It's a nice safe place where you know they won't get to political either way and strong characters who are almost unrealistically strong-willed is okay because that is what people expect from the genre. Nobody ever walks away from a Marvel movie feeling offended at least on a poltical level which I am sure is why they are making all the money in the world these days. They have found that niche of being interesting and fun and not so Batman66 silly but also not edgy enough that you feel like they are trying to make you think to hard about world events or some real dark human flaws peope have. They are most PG-13ish PG-13 movies around.
Jason
What I always want from characters are for them to have diverse personalities. I don't look for them to be strong or nurturing. I look for them to be interesting. Personally I have a weakness for assholes and eccentrics when it comes to characters but most shows need more that. I also like it when a characters defy your expections. A character you know you should hate makes you cry. A character who seems so nice comes off as a asshole. . I think one issue though that brings out anger in people though is a shows politics or even perceived politics. I don't think most people go about their daily lives giving speeches or really even talking about social issues in everyday situations so when you see it then maybe it feels forced. Of course tv and movies do have something called symbolism but I think how well people take to is how natural it feels as being a real life thing happening in that scene. Basically if you can see the writing instead of the characters then that pisses some people off.
I do think the kind of toxic nature of the internet though sometimes makes people see things in shows that aren't their but people have become so paranoid about anything poltical you start seeing Marry Sue's and sexism and conspiracies in everything you watch. Black guy beats up a white guy in a fight. Conspiracy theory mentality kicks in and it becomes a methphor of innocent white men being taken down a peg when in reality it's just as kick-ass fight scene .People on both sides almost go into a show looking for something that is going to confirm that it's the evil SJW's at it again or more examples of the patriotachy. Frankly I don't see how writers get anything done in Hollywood anymore. Not only do you got to write a great script but you know people are going to pick it apart looking for things to get angry about. First you got to know what curses you can still use or who can use them and in what context. Characters have to be strong because emotional softness is seen as male or female weakness because the SJW's are trying to make men weak or make women not strong role models but if they are to strong they are Marry Sue's or examples of toxic masculanity. You got to be Woke but not so Woke your preachy and boring. It's impressive that anything good still gets written and I expect this is one of the reasons why comic book stuff so popuar today. It's a nice safe place where you know they won't get to political either way and strong characters who are almost unrealistically strong-willed is okay because that is what people expect from the genre. Nobody ever walks away from a Marvel movie feeling offended at least on a poltical level which I am sure is why they are making all the money in the world these days. They have found that niche of being interesting and fun and not so Batman66 silly but also not edgy enough that you feel like they are trying to make you think to hard about world events or some real dark human flaws peope have. They are most PG-13ish PG-13 movies around.
Jason
I went to the link but i'm not sure what they were doing. They hired a hack who turns out to be a hack and this proves that men and women can't write for the other gender? Wouldn't a better test be to simply go look at scripts for a tv show that has had both male and female writers and compare the differences between how the women are written in the male scripts and vice versa with how they are in the scripts written by the women writers? I think everyone agree's that shows are better when you got a diverse writing staff because you get idea's and views from all sorts of different perspectives but in the end when a script is written doesn't it mean that unless your show has mostly men or mostly women the guy is going to have to write for the women characters in the show just like women have to write for the men in the show in their scripts. It seems like writing for different genders is a uavoidable thing that all writers have to do.
Jason
I must admit I got bored reading the stuff in that link 
Ultimately the cast of Discovery is ensemble so be it a male writer or a female writer or combination writing an episode, it is impractical to expect men to write for the male character dialogue and women to write for the female characters and beagles to write for the beagle etc. When they all get together in the writers room that is when people should speak up if something is ridiculous.
Ultimately the cast of Discovery is ensemble so be it a male writer or a female writer or combination writing an episode, it is impractical to expect men to write for the male character dialogue and women to write for the female characters and beagles to write for the beagle etc. When they all get together in the writers room that is when people should speak up if something is ridiculous.
Well...yeah. It's in the nature of writing fiction to try to convey some suggestion of the experiences of people you're not.
Not only does not everyone do it well, but there are genres in which readers are, perhaps unconsciously, looking for characters who think and behave unrealisically - mysteries, women's romances, science fiction...Star Trek, in fact.
That's true. Some of that stuff the guy was writing actually might have worked if he was writing for some soft core porn show or even a Sci-Fi channel movie. Their are a few instances where people expect a show or movie to be trash. Maybe some Z--grade horror movie that wants to be the next "Hobo with a Shotgun" or whatnot. Not so much if you put him on a show where people expect the writing to be good.
Jason
It was a twitter challenge to satirize male writers that put strong emphasis on the appearance of female characters that they normally don't for male characters. Basically male gaze.
Not sure how that's hard to understand from the link.
Not sure how that's hard to understand from the link.
Yeah, I got it in one.
Okay I get it. They were going for humor. I thought it was suppose to have been some serious study or something.
Jason