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David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

When did Kirk find out that David was his son?


  • Total voters
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I think Murphy Brown might have something to say about "it is much better for a child to have two parents in their life if possible".

You have one parent who actively didn't feel that having the other in their child's life was good for the child (or maybe Carol was selfish, or both), and one parent who either cared enough to not put up a fight and cause Carol and David stress, or didn't care enough to put up a fight and cause Carol and David stress. In any case, David seemed to turn out well enough (no idea what the stats are for single-parent children not turning out well enough...especially in the 23rd century), and while Jim may have harbored regrets, I imagine he harbored more regrets when he (unintentionally, to be sure) got involved and shortly after David was killed (obviously not directly responsible, but I'm sure the thought crossed his mind).

Also, even if in the Nuniverse David was conceived, we have no evidence to support the fact that they'd be allowed to have David on the ship. More likely Jim and/or Carol would have to leave the ship to raise him, or give him up for adoption or such.
 
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I think Murphy Brown might have something to say about "it is much better for a child to have two parents in their life if possible".
Whatever a tv show has to say does not change the facts, ideally a child is better off with two parents where possible. Denying a child his/her father or even mother based on one's personal circumstance when one knows who the father is, the child is not adopted, you did not go to a sperm bank, one is not a widow, one did not use a surrogate, one's ex is not a bad influence on humanity is selfish.
RL example - There is a reason why the scores of single black (or white) women left in the lurch by black men to raise their kids by themselves is not a cultural practise cheered to the rafters whether the child ends up in prison or becomes President of the USA.
 
I am still not clear on why the mother's voice should be the only one that matters.

Because custody battles are nasty and brutal. They can hurt the children AND the parents. Why go through all that pain? Up until TWOK, Kirk, Carol AND David were relatively content with their lot. There's no reason to ruin that.
 
So joint custody is out of the question, as David couldn't be expected to constantly fly back and forth between the Enterprise and wherever Carol was.
- So the choice is clear: Either David stays with Kirk, or with Carol. One or the other.
Those are not the only options. As millions of divorced or unmarried non-custodial parents could tell you, there's such a thing as visitation rights. Fine, Carol has custody of David. Kirk could still visit him, stay in touch with him, continue to play a role in his life. Instead, he appears to have weakly abdicated any connection to his son.

I'd point out that he doesn't seem so sure he did the right thing, either. Listen to how he says, "I did what you wanted. I stayed away." If anything, he sounds apologetic. It's the sound of a man who wonders if he could have done better.

And the answer is yes, he could.
 
You're still talking about Kirk needing to explicitly disregard Carol's wishes and force himself into a situation that it's not clear even he wanted. Just because he wonders if he could have done better by David doesn't mean he would change what he did.
 
You're still talking about Kirk needing to explicitly disregard Carol's wishes and force himself into a situation that it's not clear even he wanted.
You talk about disregarding Carol's wishes as if that's the worst thing he could have done. I beg to differ; I think the worst thing he could have done is the thing he apparently did do. He took the easy way out.

Carol would not be the first mother, or the last, to try to deny the father of her child visitation rights because she's unhappy with how her own relationship with said father turned out. And honestly, it sounds like that's exactly what she did. "Were we together? Were we going to be?" she demands. Well, I hate to break it to you, Carol, but Jim Kirk can be -- and is -- the father of your son, and his relationship to David does not have to be contingent on his relationship with you. One of my sisters had a daughter out of wedlock, and had broken up with the father even before she gave birth. That did not stop my niece's dad from seeing her regularly and going to the major events in her life, and niece, now an adult, has a good relationship with both of her parents. It can be done.

Bluntly: if Carol wanted a child, but did not want that child to have a connection to his father, maybe she should have gone to a sperm bank.

As for it (being a part of David's life, I guess?) being a situation that it's not even clear Kirk wanted -- well then, perhaps Jim Kirk should have given some thought to the ready availability of contraception. Once he actually had a child, that created an obligation, one on which he hugely defaulted.

Sorry, but to paraphrase Spock, Kirk is an excellent starship captain, but as a father he leaves much to be desired.
 
TWOK was made in the 80s and maybe it was acceptable then for a man to stay out of his child's life if the mother (he was not married to and couldn't prove fatherhood) didn't want him in it.
Dunno if you remember the '80s, but I do. If anything, the whole concept was even less socially acceptable then. "Single mothers" and "deadbeat dads" were both ostracized figures in the popular imagination; these days, at least the former are usually viewed with a modicum of respect.

Regardless, I don't think anything in this scenario would've involved Kirk having to "prove fatherhood." We have no indication that Carol would have lied about it if asked. What's at issue was not his status as biological father, but what to do about it.

...studies have shown that it is much better for a child to have two parents in their life if possible.
On average. Ceteris paribus. Studies like that inevitably rely on a whole lot of variables and contingencies. Some of those are under the control of the people involved, and some aren't (like the economic world we live in, for instance). What's best for a hypothetical typical person (or family) isn't necessarily best for any specific actual one. It's not statistically valid to generalize from the former to the latter; that's the ecological fallacy. Besides, in this case, "if possible" wouldn't appear to have applied, at least not without generating conflict that would be a counterweight against any potential benefits.

Courts nowadays would insist on the other parent having significant access or even equal access if possible.
It seems reasonable to infer that Federation courts, just like today's, might well have imposed mandatory visitation if either parent had insisted. But courts don't do such things of their own volition, and in this case Carol obviously wanted the exact opposite, and Kirk deferred to her wishes.

And some kids are perfectly fine with an absent parent but its heartbreaking for a lot of them...
So, in other words, lots of different emotional reactions are possible depending on the details of the specific situation, and we can't draw any valid inferences about how David actually felt about things.

...Unless he's an unfit parent (for example, an abusive one), why would it be better for him to stay out of the child's life?
Because he can't force his way into it without causing conflict with the mother. Why are people deliberately overlooking this?

Neither wanted nor needed by Carol. I am still not clear on why the mother's voice should be the only one that matters.
It presumably would not have been, had Kirk chosen to take the issue to court. In those circumstances, the court would have been tasked to determine what kind of parental custody or visitation arrangement would have been in the best interest of the child, given the pre-existing conflict between the parents that brought the case to the court. However, Kirk had it within his ability to avert that conflict in the first place by deferring to Carol's wishes about how David should be raised, and it was entirely reasonable of him to do so.

After all, he was honest enough to recognize (as she did) that the only way he could be a regular presence in David's life would be to completely upend his career and abandon Starfleet, something that neither one of them actually wanted him to do. Short of that he could at best be an absentee parent, with visits and communications no more than sporadic, and little actual involvement or influence in David's life.

Kirk might well have preferred to have at least that — after all, remember that his question to Carol that prompted this whole discussion was "why didn't you tell him?" — but she apparently nixed that as well. We don't know what if anything she actually did tell David about his parentage; all we know is what she didn't tell him, namely that his father was James Kirk, the famous starship captain.

In fact, we don't know either: that he had a daughter or that, if he did, he wasn't part of her life. Prime-Universe McCoy was in his 40s when we met him; even if he had a daughter (which was not established in Prime canon)...
Yes, it was. She was dreamed up in conversation between D.C. Fontana and DeForest Kelley himself, and she was included in the show's Writer's Bible, and if that's not precisely canon it's close enough for me... but even more on point, if you want an on-screen reference, McCoy specifically mentions her in dialogue in TAS "The Survivor."

...she could well have been grown by the time of the 5-year mission. And if she was not, he could still have remained in contact with her.
Yes, that's the consensus interpretation of things: McCoy and his wife split while their daughter was a child, but he remained in touch, and she was college-aged during the FYM. The obvious difference there is that, whatever the circumstances of McCoy's divorce, his wife didn't make a point of wanting him to stay away, as Carol did with Jim.

My relationship to my child is not just through the mother. It is direct. I am responsible for his life. It is an obligation I cannot give up, regardless of what someone else wants (didn't you see The Offspring?). It has nothing to do with her being unfit (where'd that even come from?). Whether or not I can "materially improve the child's life"? What does that even mean? Of course I can improve his life: I'M HIS DAD!!!
Kudos on your sense of responsibility, I suppose (and I'd find that a somewhat less discomfiting word than "obligation" in this context). However, your final sentence somewhat undermines that. "Of course I can improve his life: I'M HIS DAD!!!" is an entirely egoistic claim, one that's more about your own sense of identity than the child's actual well-being, and certainly isn't a claim anyone should accept at face value. Almost anyone can become a parent, after all, but that doesn't mean anyone is necessary capable of being a good parent. Ask any teacher, or psychologist, or social worker, or family law attorney, or pretty much any other kind of relevant expert... the decided majority of actual real-world parents are not particularly good at it, and some are downright awful.

Now that's not to say there can't be an arrangement that's healthy and satisfactory. An arrangement that respects the reality of dad being in space for long periods of time. And certainly no one here is talking about fighting Carol for custody (that's just stupid).
We can surmise that Kirk might have preferred such an arrangement, as I said. But a court fight is what it would have taken. How does anyone not see that? What makes Carol's remarks on the topic seem anything less than determined and decisive?

Denying a child his/her father or even mother based on one's personal circumstance when one knows who the father is, the child is not adopted, you did not go to a sperm bank, one is not a widow, one did not use a surrogate, one's ex is not a bad influence on humanity is selfish.
Well, if that's your perspective, then you appear to be saying that Carol was selfish. Perhaps so, although I think her perspective was also reasonable. Given the attitude that Carol and her professional colleagues had about Starfleet — she was cautious about it but at least willing to give it credit for having "kept the peace for a hundred years" (oops, another contradiction courtesy of DSC!... but I digress...), but others around her were even less generous — it's understandable why she might have preferred to avoid having her son feel torn between those two worlds. Lots of people here keep mentioning present-day examples of kids with one parent in the military, for instance — but if you take such an analogy and further posit that the custodial parent has a strong dislike for the military, and lives and works in a community that shares that sensibility, how would visitation from a parent who's a high-ranking officer make life any better or easier?

At any rate, whatever one concludes about her motivations, it still doesn't reflect badly on Kirk. There is simply no plausible scenario in which he could've been a part of David's life without introducing additional conflict and stress for all three people involved.
 
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Honestly, the only way I can see the whole David Marcus thing without thinking less of Kirk is if I choose to believe that he didn't know he was David's father until WoK -- a premise that's at best questionably supported by the text. I still think less of Carol, but Carol is a one-shot character who matters less to me.
Yeah. I think it fits much better if we put Kirk finding out about David somewhere in the "Lost Years" period between TOS and TMP, or perhaps between TMP and TWOK. Those years are only vaguely defined at best, and his learning about David could absolutely play into his melancholy at the beginning of each movie. That's why the Kirk we saw in TOS never gave any indication that he had a son out there -- because he didn't know.

I think Carol has to be a fairly decent person herself, too, because if she's not, why would Kirk be attracted to her in the first place? But if it's a question of making Kirk or Carol unsympathetic, clearly it's much easier from a story standpoint to make Carol less sympathetic than Kirk. You're not following The Adventures of Carol Marcus every week, after all.
Great doctor, great Starfleet officer, lousy father, (Probably lousy husband material as well)
Yeah, agreed on McCoy. In my headcanon his relationship with Nancy Crater was an extramarital affair that broke up his marriage. It makes McCoy a more interesting character for me if he's got something like that in his past.
The Great Bird forbid that our heroes be less than perfect.
A big intent of Meyer's script for TWOK was to add some more complexity to Kirk and to grey him up a bit, morally. That's why Meyer insisted on the revelation that Kirk had cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test, too - He wanted to move Kirk past the morality of a 1960s TV hero who was always, always in the right. TMP and TWOK both present us with a Kirk who at times is buttheadedly wrong. You never really saw that on TOS.
 
I think Carol has to be a fairly decent person herself, too, because if she's not, why would Kirk be attracted to her in the first place? But if it's a question of making Kirk or Carol unsympathetic, clearly it's much easier from a story standpoint to make Carol less sympathetic than Kirk...
Truth... but I don't think it's really necessary even to go that far. As Carol says, "You had your world, and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine." There's nothing about that that paints either of them as Right or Wrong, or that's unreasonable, unsympathetic, or even inaccurate. It's simply an observation that they had incompatible life paths, and it wouldn't have made sense to play tug-of-war over a child.
 
Yeah, agreed. Yeah, she's being slightly selfish, but it's selfishness coming from a good place. Carol genuinely believed that David would be better off if she raised him on her own.

And hey, who knows? Maybe Carol had a husband or another romantic partner somewhere along the way who acted as a surrogate father to David for most of his childhood. That's why Kirk was just regarded as "that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang out with." David didn't consider him to be a major figure in his mother's life.

I mean, we know for a fact that Kirk had no shortage of romantic partners in the years between his relationship with Carol and TWOK. Why shouldn't the same be true for Carol?
 
Dunno if you remember the '80s, but I do. If anything, the whole concept was even less socially acceptable then. "Single mothers" and "deadbeat dads" were both ostracized figures in the popular imagination; these days, at least the former are usually viewed with a modicum of respect.

Regardless, I don't think anything in this scenario would've involved Kirk having to "prove fatherhood." We have no indication that Carol would have lied about it if asked. What's at issue was not his status as biological father, but what to do about it.


On average. Ceteris paribus. Studies like that inevitably rely on a whole lot of variables and contingencies. Some of those are under the control of the people involved, and some aren't (like the economic world we live in, for instance). What's best for a hypothetical typical person (or family) isn't necessarily best for any specific actual one. It's not statistically valid to generalize from the former to the latter; that's the ecological fallacy. Besides, in this case, "if possible" wouldn't appear to have applied, at least not without generating conflict that would be a counterweight against any potential benefits.


It seems reasonable to infer that Federation courts, just like today's, might well have imposed mandatory visitation if either parent had insisted. But courts don't do such things of their own volition, and in this case Carol obviously wanted the exact opposite, and Kirk deferred to her wishes.


So, in other words, lots of different emotional reactions are possible depending on the details of the specific situation, and we can't draw any valid inferences about how David actually felt about things.


Because he can't force his way into it without causing conflict with the mother. Why are people deliberately overlooking this?


It presumably would not have been, had Kirk chosen to take the issue to court. In those circumstances, the court would have been tasked to determine what kind of parental custody or visitation arrangement would have been in the best interest of the child, given the pre-existing conflict between the parents that brought the case to the court. However, Kirk had it within his ability to avert that conflict in the first place by deferring to Carol's wishes about how David should be raised, and it was entirely reasonable of him to do so.

After all, he was honest enough to recognize (as she did) that the only way he could be a regular presence in David's life would be to completely upend his career and abandon Starfleet, something that neither one of them actually wanted him to do. Short of that he could at best be an absentee parent, with visits and communications no more than sporadic, and little actual involvement or influence in David's life.

Kirk might well have preferred to have at least that — after all, remember that his question to Carol that prompted this whole discussion was "why didn't you tell him?" — but she apparently nixed that as well. We don't know what if anything she actually did tell David about his parentage; all we know is what she didn't tell him, namely that his father was James Kirk, the famous starship captain.


Yes, it was. She was dreamed up in conversation between D.C. Fontana and DeForest Kelley himself, and she was included in the show's Writer's Bible, and if that's not precisely canon it's close enough for me... but even more on point, if you want an on-screen reference, McCoy specifically mentions her in dialogue in TAS "The Survivor."


Yes, that's the consensus interpretation of things: McCoy and his wife split while their daughter was a child, but he remained in touch, and she was college-aged during the FYM. The obvious difference there is that, whatever the circumstances of McCoy's divorce, his wife didn't make a point of wanting him to stay away, as Carol did with Jim.


Kudos on your sense of responsibility, I suppose (and I'd find that a somewhat less discomfiting word than "obligation" in this context). However, your final sentence somewhat undermines that. "Of course I can improve his life: I'M HIS DAD!!!" is an entirely egoistic claim, one that's more about your own sense of identity than the child's actual well-being, and certainly isn't a claim anyone should accept at face value. Almost anyone can become a parent, after all, but that doesn't mean anyone is necessary capable of being a good parent. Ask any teacher, or psychologist, or social worker, or family law attorney, or pretty much any other kind of relevant expert... the decided majority of actual real-world parents are not particularly good at it, and some are downright awful.


We can surmise that Kirk might have preferred such an arrangement, as I said. But a court fight is what it would have taken. How does anyone not see that? What makes Carol's remarks on the topic seem anything less than determined and decisive?


Well, if that's your perspective, then you appear to be saying that Carol was selfish. Perhaps so, although I think her perspective was also reasonable. Given the attitude that Carol and her professional colleagues had about Starfleet — she was cautious about it but at least willing to give it credit for having "kept the peace for a hundred years" (oops, another contradiction courtesy of DSC!... but I digress...), but others around her were even less generous — it's understandable why she might have preferred to avoid having her son feel torn between those two worlds. Lots of people here keep mentioning present-day examples of kids with one parent in the military, for instance — but if you take such an analogy and further posit that the custodial parent has a strong dislike for the military, and lives and works in a community that shares that sensibility, how would visitation from a parent who's a high-ranking officer make life any better or easier?

At any rate, whatever one concludes about her motivations, it still doesn't reflect badly on Kirk. There is simply no plausible scenario in which he could've been a part of David's life without introducing additional conflict and stress for all three people involved.
How times have changed It was terribly unacceptable to be an 'unmarried mother' in the 80s and now its quite normal. But easier to hide being a deadbeat Dad before the days of DNA testing.

And its not egotistical for a father to want to be in a child's life. Its their biological/emotional imperative to ensure the best for a child. You can reject all the studies if you want to but they do say its better for a child to have their biological parent in their life. Not saying an adoptive/stepparent can't love a child as much. But imagine how lucky a child is if they know they have love from everyone.

In regards to having a custody battle. Unless there's something severely wrong with a parent then the court is going to give access to both even if one is in the military and the other doesn't want it. Nowadays theres skype, mobile phones, shore leave, vacation time. If Kirk was in the Navy nowadays, he would negotiate with the Courts to see his son on leave, when training in Port etc. If Carol opposed this Court Order then Kirk could get the Police to accompany him to her house and get the child for the weekend whatever.
So I disagree if you say that Kirk was being noble to avoid this sort of conflict. If I were David then I would like to think that my Father fought for me. Eventually the Mother has to cave legally and morally.
And it can be easy for Fathers in this situation to just give up but its better for the child, the Father and even the Mother (gives her a break) if they try to stay in their child's life. Of course I'm qualifying this by saying the parent in question is not a criminal and both parents do not spend their entire time with the child blaming the other parent for things and putting them down.

From TWOK to me it looks like Kirk knew about David for long enough to stay away. To make Kirk look the best I'd say Carol told him some time during the 5YM so he didn't have the opportunity to fight for access. Then maybe Carol told Kirk she asked David as a teen if he wanted to know about his father and he said "No" so thats why he stayed way.
 
Then maybe Carol told Kirk she asked David as a teen if he wanted to know about his father and he said "No" so thats why he stayed way.
Yeah, we're all kind of forgetting that after a certain point David would have a say in this, too. But I think it's pretty obvious that David definitely didn't find out that Kirk was his father until some point between scenes of TWOK. Some time after they beamed up from the Genesis Cave, I reckon.
 
Yeah, we're all kind of forgetting that after a certain point David would have a say in this, too. But I think it's pretty obvious that David definitely didn't find out that Kirk was his father until some point between scenes of TWOK. Some time after they beamed up from the Genesis Cave, I reckon.
I think he was probably starting to put the pieces together once he realized his mother still loved Jim.
 
You can reject all the studies if you want to but they do say its better for a child to have their biological parent in their life.
I didn't "reject" any studies on the subject, I just mentioned that (like all studies on human relations) their findings are at best applicable in the aggregate, and are exquisitely sensitive to variations in individual circumstances. (By analogy, a study might show quite accurately that on average people with college degrees do better in terms of socio-economic status. That doesn't mean you can point at Person X and say that a college degree is necessarily the right choice for him personally.) Studies are only statistically meaningful in regard to large populations, about which it is possible to say "all else equal" because individual variations are washed out by randomization.

Moreover, what you mentioned earlier were studies saying that (all else equal) children are better off being raised by two parents. That is not at all the same thing as saying they're better off being raised by their biological parents, as you're putting it now, and if that's your argument you have a much harder row to hoe.

In regards to having a custody battle. ... If Carol opposed this Court Order then Kirk could get the Police to accompany him to her house and get the child for the weekend whatever.
Perhaps. But why would Kirk want to subject David, or Carol, or himself, to that kind of drama? What would be the benefit, aside from the symbolic gratification of being able to say he was there for "his" son? A lot of parental-rights court claims come down to nothing but that — ego gratification grounded in a sense of entitlement and possession.

So I disagree if you say that Kirk was being noble to avoid this sort of conflict. If I were David then I would like to think that my Father fought for me. Eventually the Mother has to cave legally and morally.
I literally cannot understand, much less relate to, this line of thinking. "He subjected my family to an emotionally stressful court battle... that must mean he loves me"? Uh-uh. Have you never heard the phrase "if you love somebody, let them go"? That's what Kirk did, and from all appearances it was the right thing. We have no reason to believe that David had anything other than an excellent upbringing, nor that Kirk would have been in any position to improve it.

Then maybe Carol told Kirk she asked David as a teen if he wanted to know about his father and he said "No" so thats why he stayed way.
This part, at least, I can agree with. I'd like to think that Carol gave David the opportunity to know more when he was old enough to understand, and that if he'd wanted to know more she would have told him.
 
Kudos on your sense of responsibility, I suppose (and I'd find that a somewhat less discomfiting word than "obligation" in this context). However, your final sentence somewhat undermines that. "Of course I can improve his life: I'M HIS DAD!!!" is an entirely egoistic claim, one that's more about your own sense of identity than the child's actual well-being, and certainly isn't a claim anyone should accept at face value. Almost anyone can become a parent, after all, but that doesn't mean anyone is necessary capable of being a good parent. Ask any teacher, or psychologist, or social worker, or family law attorney, or pretty much any other kind of relevant expert... the decided majority of actual real-world parents are not particularly good at it, and some are downright awful.

Well, not that it matters, but I am a Psychologist.

As for the rest, clearly you have a big investment in your point of view (given the amount of time and effort involved), so I'll move on.

Happy Posting.
 
I literally cannot understand, much less relate to, this line of thinking. "He subjected my family to an emotionally stressful court battle... that must mean he loves me"?
Of course, Carol would have a great deal to do with just how stressful any court fight would have to get. If, like an adult, at any point she realized that from a legal standpoint she literally does not have a case for denying Kirk access to his son (why the quote marks around "his," anyway? No one denies that David is Kirk's son. Or do only mothers have children?), then the courtroom drama ends. If Carol is such an awesome parent and wonderful human being, then why couldn't she do the reasonable thing?

Have you never heard the phrase "if you love somebody, let them go"?
Last I checked, that wasn't intended to apply to the relationship of an adult to a minor child. When a parent "loves" their minor child by letting them go, often IRL the results are -- how can I say? -- less than optimal.

We have no reason to believe that David had anything other than an excellent upbringing,
Several people in this thread have contended that since David turned out okay, Kirk (and Carol) did nothing wrong. This is a work of fiction. The fact that David turned out well "proves" nothing other than that the writers decided to say that he did. They could as easily say that he was raised in the rainforest by monkeys and grew up to become an erudite, tea-sipping gentleman of leisure -- that would obviously be absurd, but they could still say it. I am not, of course, saying that children of single parents can't turn out well; we have RL examples to the contrary. But we also have RL evidence that, all other things being equal, having two parents does advantage a child.

Honestly? I can live with Kirk being flawed. Another thing that's true IRL is that all of us are flawed in some ways, at some level; as a more religious friend of mine is fond of quoting, "For we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That Kirk has made some questionable choices makes him a more realistic, more human character. Okay. I just refuse to define his actions in this matter -- his choice to let himself be excluded from his son's life -- as anything other than a flaw.
 
JFC! By the reactions in this thead one could conclude Kirk abandoned his kid to the wolves. People give up babies to adoption all the time, I'd hate to know what people in this thread think about that...
 
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