Poll Disco v Lost in Space v Orville FIGHT

[Lord Garth]

But don't "bashers"/'detractors"/whatever-you-want-to-call-them normally hang around the forum of the Latest Series? That seemed to be the same with VOY and ENT here when they were the newest series. It got so bad, there was a mediation thread at one point. Which makes for some very interesting reading by the way...

10 years from now, I think this forum would be much more heavily slanted towards fans of the show than it is at this point.

 

[thribs]

Discovery is winning? That's just wrong.

 

[eschaton]

I enjoyed what I've seen from LiS so far...but I hope there's more to it than going from one peril to another and watching people walk across great expanses of terrain.

No, not really. I mean, aside from some character growth and the one big "twist" which is unveiled in the penultimate episode.

But unlike a Trek show (or The Orville) there are really no deeper themes to explore. Not even much of a mythos. It's really just about characters in crisis.

 

[Kane_Steel]

Edit.

 

[Jadeb]

No, not really. I mean, aside from some character growth and the one big "twist" which is unveiled in the penultimate episode.

But unlike a Trek show (or The Orville) there are really no deeper themes to explore. Not even much of a mythos. It's really just about characters in crisis.

I don't think I agree with you here. LiS is strongly driven by man-vs.-nature, yes, but there's some thoughtful stuff going on beyond that. For example, Will's relationship with the Robot struck me as much more interesting than Discovery's tired Tardigrade plot:

Spoiler

Here we have a kid who, in his last moments, chooses to do pure good for an alien robot monster. He's rewarded for that with friendship, in the finest Trek tradition, and goes on to convince the adults to look past the Robot's scary alien exterior (Trek trope No. 2). But then the show subverts that by revealing that this creature may be a killing machine responsible for the catastrophe that trapped them on the planet. That creates an interesting moral dilemma for Will, and we see the choice he makes, even after all the Robot has done for them. (Faith loses out to fear.) And we see what the Robot is willing to sacrifice for Will even as the boy betrays it.

Of course, this is all reframed when we find out the humans may have done something sinister to bring the attack on themselves. This ties in nicely with one of the big themes: What is it acceptable to do to survive? To help your family survive? Maureen commits some mysterious sin to get her son on board and off the Earth. But that means Will, this good-hearted kid we all root for, has no more "right" to be there than the villainous Dr. Smith. So where do we draw the line when it comes to our own self-interest?

Admittedly, LiS doesn't wrap up everything in a neat bow so that we can analyze these questions in the way Trek usually lets us. But it does a good job setting them up, IMO.

 

[Wowbagger]

But don't "bashers"/'detractors"/whatever-you-want-to-call-them normally hang around the forum of the Latest Series? That seemed to be the same with VOY and ENT here when they were the newest series. It got so bad, there was a mediation thread at one point. Which makes for some very interesting reading by the way...

10 years from now, I think this forum would be much more heavily slanted towards fans of the show than it is at this point.

This matches my memory as well. Haters always congregate at the site of the newest show, then mostly leave it alone once it has been cancelled and is no longer a threat. This makes haters seem more numerous than they are. I say that as a Disco hater and Ent fanboy.

OTOH, this forum seems to me to be dominated by haters in a way that the ENT and VOY fora never were. Big grain of salt, but there may be more to it than the usual haters' coven.

 

[Vger23]

This matches my memory as well. Haters always congregate at the site of the newest show, then mostly leave it alone once it has been cancelled and is no longer a threat. This makes haters seem more numerous than they are. I say that as a Disco hater and Ent fanboy.

OTOH, this forum seems to me to be dominated by haters in a way that the ENT and VOY fora never were. Big grain of salt, but there may be more to it than the usual haters' coven.

The weekly polls demonstrated that there are far more TrekBBs users who like the show than not. It's just that most of those people are content to go about their lives than respond endlessly to the 7 or 8 board members who relentlessly post negativity out here.

 

[Lord Garth]

OTOH, this forum seems to me to be dominated by haters in a way that the ENT and VOY fora never were. Big grain of salt, but there may be more to it than the usual haters' coven.

I was here in 1999, almost from the beginning of TrekBBS, and the VOY Forum was savage. The ENT Forum was given an inch-of-rope moderation level specifically because of how bad it was in the VOY Forum. And the ENT Forum in 2001 was pretty volatile as well. And especially at this point in 2002 (where DSC currently is in its lifetime). Anyone sane or without the stomach for the constant fighting would've left, regardless of which side they were on.

Compared to how things were back then, the DSC Forum today is like nothing. The same number of people aren't being driven away as would've back then, including "haters".

Another thing to consider would be this is the first Star Trek series since 1987 that Rick Berman has had nothing to do with. TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT all have a similar production quality. DSC is a break from that, which means some people will like that (myself for instance) but several more people won't because you'll have a disproportionate number of fans who either don't like that DSC isn't doing what the other series used to or they don't mind it being different from Previous Trek, but they don't like that it's being different this way and would prefer that it be different some other way. And you'll have people who wish this was a continuation of the Kelvin Timeline. Maybe they didn't want to go back to Prime or Sort-Of-Prime at all.

So you have more people with different ideas about what this series should've done, they want their say, and they'll voice it. Which I fully support because I know what it's like to be a detractor. Even though I think it's odd for someone to spend years on end watching and posting about a show they can't stand, anyone who wants to do so should be able to express their opinion.

 

[Vger23]

I was here in 1999, almost from the beginning of TrekBBS, and the VOY Forum was savage. The ENT Forum was given an inch-of-rope moderation level specifically because of how bad it was in the VOY Forum. And the ENT Forum in 2001 was pretty volatile as well. And especially at this point in 2002 (where DSC currently is in its lifetime). Anyone sane or without the stomach for the constant fighting would've left, regardless of which side they were on.

Compared to how things were back then, the DSC Forum today is like nothing. The same number of people aren't being driven away as would've back then, including "haters".

Another thing to consider would be this is the first Star Trek series since 1987 that Rick Berman has had nothing to do with. TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT all have a similar production quality. DSC is a break from that, which means some people will like that (myself for instance) but several more people won't because you'll have a disproportionate number of fans who either don't like that DSC isn't doing what the other series used to or they don't mind it being different from Previous Trek, but they don't like that it's being different this way and would prefer that it be different some other way. And you'll have people who wish this is was a continuation of the Kelvin Timeline. Maybe they didn't want to go back to Prime or Sort-Of-Prime at all.

So you have more people with different ideas about what this series should've done, they want their say, and they'll voice it. Which I fully support because I know what it's like to be a detractor. Even though I think it's odd for someone to spend years on end watching and posting about a show they can't stand, anyone who wants to do so should be able to express their opinion.

I totally agree. Throw 2009 in there as a comparison group as well. DSC "haters" are a laughable bunch of sniveling, impotent whiners compared to those days. Those folks really knew how to have fun.

DSC has been welcomed with open arms compared to most of that. I think it's funny when people say "DESKUVRY IS TEH HATED SUX SHO!!!1!1!" when the reality is the response to this has been much more positive than the past several inflection points in the franchise that have divided our logical, level-headed, patient, supportive and tolerant fan base [/sarcasm]. Hell, members of the production team of TWOK were receiving frigging DEATH THREATS prior to that film's release!

It's all relative folks. Whether you want to admit it or not, the "Discovery hate" is a blip phenomenon that is pale and limp compared to how Trek fan's history of despondency has been.

The people who didn't get what they want are always going to bitch and moan incessantly about it, hoping that some producer will read their anguished post and change the show to their liking. The majority of people who are satisfied jus go on with their lives. So, you hear from the disappointed and enraged FAR more than those who are relatively pleased.

 

[starsuperion]

I totally agree. Throw 2009 in there as a comparison group as well. DSC "haters" are a laughable bunch of sniveling, impotent whiners compared to those days. Those folks really knew how to have fun.

DSC has been welcomed with open arms compared to most of that. I think it's funny when people say "DESKUVRY IS TEH HATED SUX SHO!!!1!1!" when the reality is the response to this has been much more positive than the past several inflection points in the franchise that have divided our logical, level-headed, patient, supportive and tolerant fan base [/sarcasm]. Hell, members of the production team of TWOK were receiving frigging DEATH THREATS prior to that film's release!

It's all relative folks. Whether you want to admit it or not, the "Discovery hate" is a blip phenomenon that is pale and limp compared to how Trek history has been.

Hmpf..this smacks of wishful thinking.. Give it time. The savagery will undoubtedly be unleashed. The fact it hadnt yet is kinda ominous, like a boiler about to blow as it rumbles and holds it all in..

At some point Trek civil war 75,000 point 0 will commence and anarchy will ensue.

I just hope we're all friends again after..

 

[Vger23]

Hmpf..this smacks of wishful thinking.. Give it time. The savagery will undoubtedly be unleashed. The fact it hadnt yet is kinda ominous, like a boiler about to blow as it rumbles and holds it all in..

At some point Trek civil war 75,000 point 0 will commence and anarchy will ensue.

I just hope we're all friends again after..

Um, ok bro.

 

[starsuperion]

Um, ok bro.

Id like to see numbers supporting your statement that STD has been welcomed widely with open arms..

Um okay? Bro?

 

[Lord Garth]

Id like to see numbers supporting your statement that STD has been welcomed widely with open arms..

Um okay? Bro?

Vger23 did say "compared to most". That mediation thread in the ENT Forum I linked to a few posts ago, you should read it (and some other people should also read or re-read it). There were people who were actively campaigning for the show to be cancelled and were attacking posters as people for even liking the show. The detractors here, to their credit, mostly stick to talking about the show and not attacking other posters. I also don't see anyone here calling the Creators of DSC the Anti-Christ or anything like that. It's been tame. If the forum were one big Nuclear Flame War, I would not post here. I want nothing to do with any of that.

Whenever things have been heated in this forum, it's been because of issues that go beyond Star Trek. The issues of today, representation, sensitive hot-button topics. Stuff that actually matters. And the moderators have been pretty good about the latitude they give.

 

[SPCTRE]

I don't even have a horse in this threeway knife fight, but

 

[Rahul]

I totally agree. Throw 2009 in there as a comparison group as well. DSC "haters" are a laughable bunch of sniveling, impotent whiners compared to those days. Those folks really knew how to have fun.

DSC has been welcomed with open arms compared to most of that. I think it's funny when people say "DESKUVRY IS TEH HATED SUX SHO!!!1!1!" when the reality is the response to this has been much more positive than the past several inflection points in the franchise that have divided our logical, level-headed, patient, supportive and tolerant fan base [/sarcasm]. Hell, members of the production team of TWOK were receiving frigging DEATH THREATS prior to that film's release!

It's all relative folks. Whether you want to admit it or not, the "Discovery hate" is a blip phenomenon that is pale and limp compared to how Trek fan's history of despondency has been.

The people who didn't get what they want are always going to bitch and moan incessantly about it, hoping that some producer will read their anguished post and change the show to their liking. The majority of people who are satisfied jus go on with their lives. So, you hear from the disappointed and enraged FAR more than those who are relatively pleased.

The thing with Discovery is, there simply isn't a lot of people watching it.
Yes, it makes money. But that's because of the bussiness model of All Access, they squeeze much more money out of fewer viewers, with monthly fees and probably) much more personalised ads.

But still, the actual audience numbers are embarrasing. ENT got cancelled with more viewers. Heck, 'The Orville' - a Star Trek satire - now has a larger audience following than actual Star Trek.

The relative peace here isn't because DIS isn't controversial. It's because the fandom is almost dead, with a few exceptions that still flood money into a television franchise that peaked in the 90s, died in the 00s, and only lives on from a very select circle of people still obsessing about it to the point they are willing to cash out hard for the nostalgia factor of it.

 

[Rahul]

In this case, I think a reboot was the way to go -- LiS was a damaged franchise associated with '60s camp and a failed movie. No series today was going to follow either template, and I'm glad they didn't try. Don't make it totally different and tell me it's the same.

LiS, to me, was the perfect subject for a reboot -- a good idea that had never been realized to its full potential.

The only way to do Lost in Space was via a reboot.
It's a very specific story, about a family - the Robinsons - getting, well, lost. In space.
You can't seperate it from the family or the story ("getting lost").

'Star Trek' on the other hand had outgrown from "The adventures of Kirk and Spock on the Enterprise", and became a franchise. Specifically at the point were it became "Adventures of a NEW crew on another vessel". For Star Trek, a reboot is silly. Because Star Trek isn't a fixed set of characters any more, it's a concept. And you can't really reboot a concept successfully.

For 'Lost in Space' that's not an option, though. It can't be "another family, also lost in space". That would be silly. Thus, a reboot is basically the only way this franchise can ever go forward. If there will be a LiS show or movie in 50 years, you can be assured, it will also be the "Robinson" family (however a "regular" television family looks like in 50 years) being... lost.

 

[PiotrB]

Honestly, it's a bit shocking that the Trek show hasn't built up more of a lead in the poll already, given the venue.

Not a good sign on a Discovery subforum of a Star Trek board.

On the contrary. Poll favors DSC haters and results shows how insignificant this group is. Most DSC fans will vote for 3 or 2 series so poll results for all series would be pretty equal and current results are like that. All haters will not vote on DSC so results if count only this group would be DSC 0%, LIS and ORV about 40-60% so all DSC fans to equate this would have vote only to DSC. If haters would have any significancy they would easly win this poll.

This poll also shows one unsurprising fact how vocal is this insignificant but motivated minority.

 

[eschaton]

I don't think I agree with you here. LiS is strongly driven by man-vs.-nature, yes, but there's some thoughtful stuff going on beyond that. For example, Will's relationship with the Robot struck me as much more interesting than Discovery's tired Tardigrade plot:

Spoiler

Here we have a kid who, in his last moments, chooses to do pure good for an alien robot monster. He's rewarded for that with friendship, in the finest Trek tradition, and goes on to convince the adults to look past the Robot's scary alien exterior (Trek trope No. 2). But then the show subverts that by revealing that this creature may be a killing machine responsible for the catastrophe that trapped them on the planet. That creates an interesting moral dilemma for Will, and we see the choice he makes, even after all the Robot has done for them. (Faith loses out to fear.) And we see what the Robot is willing to sacrifice for Will even as the boy betrays it.

Of course, this is all reframed when we find out the humans may have done something sinister to bring the attack on themselves. This ties in nicely with one of the big themes: What is it acceptable to do to survive? To help your family survive? Maureen commits some mysterious sin to get her son on board and off the Earth. But that means Will, this good-hearted kid we all root for, has no more "right" to be there than the villainous Dr. Smith. So where do we draw the line when it comes to our own self-interest?

Admittedly, LiS doesn't wrap up everything in a neat bow so that we can analyze these questions in the way Trek usually lets us. But it does a good job setting them up, IMO.

One of the things I disliked about the show actually was the treatment of the robot.

Spoiler

Basically, virtually everyone in the show - even Maureen Robinson, who has a background as an engineer - presumed that whether the robot was now "nice" or a threat, that it was a mere tool. The one exception was arguably Will, but in his case it's clearly shown to be an irrational bond formed in part as a surrogate to his dysfunctional relationship with his father. While as the viewer we are given a fair amount of on-screen evidence to suggest the robot is actually self-aware, no one on the show even posits this. So for example, near the end when the robot starts doing "Dr. Smith's" bidding, it's taken for granted it's because it's been "reprogrammed" by Smith, rather than it being pissed that Will - its friend - told it to commit suicide.

I dunno, when I see a robot in a science-fiction show, I at least expect the issue of self-awareness and personhood to be drawn into the discussion. But at no time when they were debating what to do with the robot did they consider the robot's potential agency as an independent being. It really stuck in my craw.

 

[Lord Garth]

The relative peace here isn't because DIS isn't controversial. It's because the fandom is almost dead, with a few exceptions that still flood money into a television franchise that peaked in the 90s, died in the 00s, and only lives on from a very select circle of people still obsessing about it to the point they are willing to cash out hard for the nostalgia factor of it.

If this is "dead", then I like what Heaven looks like. It's better than Limbo. But some might think this is Hell, to which I say to them, "Hail Satan!!!"

On a more serious note, I still think Discovery should've just straight-up aired on Netflix across the board. It would have more viewers. But whatever. Maybe more people will see DSC if they have more reason to pick up CBSAA. Or CBSAA ends up with the plug pulled and existing episodes of DSC will be transferred to US Netflix.

For the record, though: Discovery doesn't give me any sense of nostalgia. When I watch it, it feels like the '10s. It's The Orville that makes me feel nostalgic.

 

[Mudd]

Discovery is winning? That's just wrong.

It's a Discovery forum, on a Trek board...and STD is barely ahead.

And they only let me vote once. Honest.