Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps

[Shamrock Holmes]

As for 'Earth Army', as adamant I am that there aren't or shouldn't be Starfleet Marines, I actually think there could be various planetary armies and militias.

I'm certainly in favour of Starfleet having access to a force of commandos/special ops et al, but I'm fine with them not being the "Starfleet Marines" (a light infantry/combined arms force centred operationally and psychologically around offensive warfare modelled on the USMC). Therefore if light infantry do exist (and Nor the Battle to the Strong bears this interpretation.

At least during the 2100s, Earth's military would appear to have been known as the United Earth Military (from an onscreen bio of Balthazar Edison), which would fit with the known pattern of the United Earth Diplomatic Corps, United Earth Space Probe Agency, United Earth Starfleet (possibly also known as the Starfleet Command of the UESPA), and the (United) Earth Cargo Service/Authority.

These however would be more like national guard type organisations, who help in cases of various natural disasters or defend the planet in the unlikely case of an invasion. In some places they might be the same thing as the local police or fire and rescue service. They are not deployed outside their homeplanets and would be run by the member governments, not the Federation. There is no 'Federation Army.'

I buy that de facto control of the PDFs would be the host planet governent or even sub-divisions thereof, as an active-duty reserve force primarily for planetary (or local system) policing, SAR, disaster relief, and first-line 'rapid response' defense. However, I would suspect that training and equipment is maintained to Starfleet standards (though perhaps not 'top of the line') and that like the US National Guard, British Army Reserve (previously the Territorials) and similar units in other countries, it is possible to 'detach' personnel to serve with Starfleet on a unit-by-unit basis within the same chain-of-command (for example, Wayeh Surt and Cenn Desca's role as Bajoran Liaison Officer to Deep Space Nine) and potentially even large formations or commands as needed during times of war (this is the only the source of infantry or armor divisions and above that I consider credible in Federation service).

 

[Tenacity]

But nowadays I like to think Discovery might be the mangled TOS era in a timeline affected by the Temporal War. It still doesn't explain the Klingons, though.

Explain the Klingons, how about this?

The "Hurq" never left, the people we've seen as Klingons in past series never assimilated the Hurq culture nor took over the Hurq technology.

The term Klingon comes from one of the Hurq's (many) names for themselves. The people we've seen as Klingons are still slaves on the Klingon homeworld.

so Archer's achievements seem more of a long list of screw ups

That part of the plan worked.

But that game is full of utter nonsense.

Feel the same way about many things in the Abrams-universe.

 

[Longinus]

Feel the same way about many things in the Abrams-universe.

Sure, no arguments here.

 

[Tenacity]

We like things or we don't.

There no mention is the prime canon as to what happens to the MACO's after we last see them. Did they get disbanded a few years later? I don't see why, but it's possible.

Did they continue for multiple centuries, changing through the years, but remaining MACO's? Also a possibility, and one I personally find interesting.

I actually don't like the idea advanced by some that Starfleet basically does everything.

There's no MACO in the future, there's Starfleet.
There's no Marines in the future, there's Starfleet.
Members don't have their own forces, there's Starfleet.
Earth needs "men on the streets," a job for Starfleet.
Vulcan don't have defense ships, that refers to Starfleet.
Betazed's defense's, oh that's Starfleet too.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I actually don't like the idea advanced by some that Starfleet basically does everything.

I think that depends how you define Starfleet, but I agree that the "Starship Service" (aka Starfleet Exploration) probably shouldn't be the "be-all and end-all".

There's no MACO in the future, there's Starfleet.

MACOs are (part of) the UEM canonically, and I see no reason to change this.

There's no Marines in the future, there's Starfleet.

I don't think Starfleet Exploration ("Starship Service") or Starfleet Operational Support Services ("Starbase Service") have any use for offensive combined arms warfare units, like the Marines. However, I could see the Federation Naval Patrol or local units from worlds like Earth, Andor or Pacifica could be TDY'd if maritime assault expertise is required.

Members don't have their own forces, there's Starfleet. Earth needs "men on the streets," a job for Starfleet.

Clearly, the UEM (including potentially the MACOs) should have been used in HF/PL (Aparrently, this was originally intended but was cut because it would have "too confusing" (personnally, IMO Leyton should have a LT-GEN in the UEM that previously served in Starfleet and the Bolian Academy Commandant would then be the senior Starfleet conspirator.

Vulcan don't have defense ships, that refers to Starfleet. Betazed's defense's, oh that's Starfleet too.

Re Vulcan:
WORF: The Vulcan defence vessels are also responding. The Romulan force is retreating toward the Neutral Zone.
RIKER: They're not taking those Vulcan ships home with them.
WORF: Visual range, Commander.

If they specifically tasked to defending Vulcan, then logically they are under Vulcan control, though them being modern Vulcan designs (rather than Starfleet surplus) is optional.

Re Betazed:
SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.

The Tenth Fleet is almost certainly Starfleet (or combined Starfleet-Klingon) one, rather than a Betazoid one, but the quote would support the idea of something like a Betazed Defence Force (referenced as fighting in the Dominion War in the Decipher RPG (non-canon, but potentially viable as a 'fill in the gaps').

 

[Nerys Myk]

MACOs are (part of) the UEM canonically, and I see no reason to change this.

They are? Is UEM "United Earth Military"?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

They are? Is UEM "United Earth Military"?

A bio-screen from Star Trek Beyond identifed Baltazar Edison (otherwise referred to as a MACO [Military Assault Command Operator?] as serving with "United Earth Military". No abbreviation was ever given but UEM seems the only sensible choice).

 

[The Wormhole]

Scotty calls Edison a Major in "United Earth Military Assault Command Organization" which is basically what MACO stood for in Enterprise except there the O was for Ops or Operations as opposed to Organization. If there's a screen actually saying United Earth Military I'd say whoever wrote that probably misunderstood/misheard/misread/mis-something or othered Scotty's line.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Scotty calls Edison a Major in "United Earth Military Assault Command Organization" which is basically what MACO stood for in Enterprise except there the O was for Ops or Operations as opposed to Organization. If there's a screen actually saying United Earth Military I'd say whoever wrote that probably misunderstood/misheard/misread/mis-something or othered Scotty's line.

Nope.

 

[The Wormhole]

Too bad I was actually referring to a line of dialogue. As I said, Scotty says "United Earth Military Assault Command Organization." Whoever wrote the bio screen likely misunderstood what he said.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Possible, however given that Scotty's line (given Archer's line in the season three opener) should be rendered "(United Earth) Military Assault Command organisation", it's not difficult to imagine that the full title of Hayes' unit would be something like "1st Operations Platoon, 3rd Company, Assault Command, United Earth Military."

 

[The Wormhole]

given Archer's line in the season three opener

What line is that? According to this transcript Archer says nothing about the MACOs. Hoshi does refer to them as "Military Assault Command when she meets them in the mess hall, but that's it.

It's also worth noting their armpatch with the TOS command star on it does say "Military Assault Command Ops."
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/MACO_uniform_and_equipment#Ranks_and_insignia

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

My bad. Archer established that they were a military unit (initially in The Expanse, later repeated in the "Last time..." segment at the beginning of "The Xindi".

However, you are correct that it was Hoshi would identified them as 'Military Assault Command", which is fact the only name given for the organisation as opposed to the soldiers themselves, who are refered to as 'MACOs' and wear a patch that says 'Military Assault Command Ops'. IMO, assuming that it's they are the 'Operators of the Military Assault Command organisation' which is part of the 'United Earth Military' is the most sensible interpretation of the limited evidence and I'm not aware of any dialogue or onscreen info that contradicts this.

 

[Tenacity]

My bad. Archer established that they were a military unit

Wasn't that the Admiral, and not Archer, who referred to them as "the military?"

should be rendered "(United Earth) Military Assault Command organisation",

Why United Earth? One of the interesting (even mysterious) things about the MACO's is we don't know exactly where they come from, or who they work for.

The only United Earth we ever get is the Space Probe Agency, and a Diplomatic Corp. No reason to add MACO to that short two idea list.

Scotty calls Edison a Major in "United Earth Military Assault Command Organization" which is basically what MACO stood for in Enterprise except there the O was for Ops or Operations as opposed to Organization.

Years had pasted, perhaps the MACO's ( or their military masters) changed the O to organization?

 

[The Wormhole]

Why United Earth? One of the interesting (even mysterious) things about the MACO's is we don't know exactly where they come from, or who they work for.

It has been established in Beyond they were a United Earth organization, and that has been the interpretation STO and the novel continuity had gone with.

 

[Tenacity]

It has been established in Beyond they were a United Earth organization,

alternation universe, in that post i was referring the prime universe.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

alternation universe, in that post i was referring the prime universe.

Given that it is refering to a situation prior to the PoD, there's no reason to believe that it isn't also true of the Prime Timeline in absence of any conflicting evidence.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Nope.

Sadly the guys doing the graphics weren't filled in on some important details like dates.

This is the graphic as it appeared in the theatrical release of Beyond. It was modified for the bluray release.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Well, obviously the only date given is an error (he's not a child), but that doesn't mean that the other information is necessarily wrong, particularly as it fits with other known information about the organisation (it's either a US organisation or like the United Earth Starfleet is a US-dominated, US-headquartered international organisation). Now, could it be contradicted by a higher source in future? Naturally, but the canon policy has always allowed for onscreen graphics to be accepted as canon, so I see no reason not to accept it as it's less contradictory than much of the 'TOS' dialogue about the structures of Starfleet.

 

[Tenacity]

Given that it is refering to a situation prior to the PoD, there's no reason to believe that it isn't also true of the Prime Timeline in absence of any conflicting evidence.

In the Abrams-universe the Romulan war occurred prior to 2255.

Edison and the USS Franklin went missing (on screen graphic) in 2255, that's the same year as ENT first season.

Edison was veteran of the Romulan war.

Edison said there was a "war" with the Xindi, this implies there was more of a conflict in the alternate universe than what we saw during ENT. And it must have happen years earlier.

The Franklin had a NCC number (NCC-7317), we never saw a NCC number during ENT.

Alternate-Scotty said he was a MACO, But he was commanding a starship in 2255, ENT says that MACO's weren't even attached to a starship as a combat unit until ENT's third season.

There's no reason to believe the Abrams-universe was the prime-universe prior to a certain point in time. Nothing presented on screen, especially in Beyond, say anything other than "completely alternate universe."