David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

[lawman]

If such a thing happened, then the increased quality and availability of replicators would be a good explanation. (Sorry, off topic.)

That's a fair point. Still, even in the TOS era they obviously had "food synthesizers" aboard ship, and apparently handled uniforms similarly. The implications of transporter tech were obvious, and many things (e.g., the colony worlds) only make sense with at least industrial (if not shipboard) level replicators. By the TNG era they'd just gotten a lot more sophisticated and ubiquitous, and could be used for things like holodecks, organ transplants, and the like.

Basically, I've always thought of the TOS era as a post-scarcity society, and the TNG era as a more advanced post-scarcity society. IOW, in the 23rd century they'd already worked out the technology (and the economic systems) for handing all basic human needs, without requiring full-time human labor... but out on the frontier things were often a little more seat-of-the-pants. By the TNG era they'd advanced to the point where they could handle luxuries without breaking a sweat, and even a starship or a colony world apparently functioned more like a resort hotel.

(I generally kinda hate to rely on VOY as a source for anything... but FWIW, as Memory Alpha reminds me, "By the founding of the Federation in the 22nd century, capitalism was no longer the economic system of Earth, being replaced by the New World Economy. According to Tom Paris, it was around this time that 'money went the way of the dinosaur.' (VOY: 'Dark Frontier')")

And as for relating this to the thread topic!... What it means is that, obviously, no single parent would be forced to turn to the other, absentee parent (and endure all the emotional drama involved) just for the sake of "child support"... much less to bring legal coercion to bear for that purpose. The well-being of the child would simply never be in question. So if Carol wanted to raise David on her own, there would be no reason for Kirk to feel guilty about cooperating with that. (Although, of course, he might have wished she had preferred otherwise.)

 

[MAGolding]

STEPonIT said:

Only because I love TWOK, I've claiming Carol was the woman Kirk almost married because of Gary Mitchell's prank. In reality the timelines doesn't fit.

How so?

Sawnster Said:

Yes, please elaborate

CorporalCaptain said:

Yeah, Kirk could have met Carol Marcus years before fathering David and almost marrying Carol.

You are assuming that the chronological problem is that Mitchell should have fixed up Kirk with the Little Blonde Lab Technician" (or LBLT) years before David should have been born.

But the chronological problem is actually that the most reasonable time that Mitchell should have fixed up Kirk with the LBLT was late enough that it is just barely possible for David to be old enough to be a PHD in WOK.

As I said in my post # 45 in this thread:

In my answer to this question: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/140090/was-carol-marcus-the-little-blonde-lab-technician I discuss the chronology of Kirk's career.

My conclusion is that the most probable and natural outline of Kirk's career is that after being commissioned an ensign Kirk served on the Republic under Captain Garrovick and then transferred to the Farragut along with Captain Garrovick - Kirk said Garrovik was Kirk's commanding officer from the time Kirk left the Academy until Garrovick was killed. Kirk was a lieutenant, apparently under Garrovick, 13 years before the second season according "A Private little War" and eleven years before the second season according to "Obsession".

It is my belief that the most natural and probable outline of Kirk's career would have his teaching at Starfleet Academy be sometime after the Farragut disaster and before Kirk returned to space and got rapidly promoted to captain. So if David Marcus was born during this period it would be chronologically possible for him to be old enough to be a PHD in WOK, but the chronology would be tight.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You are assuming...

No. I made no assumption. I simply pointed out that something was consistent with canon.

 

[Longinus]

That's a fair point. Still, even in the TOS era they obviously had "food synthesizers" aboard ship, and apparently handled uniforms similarly. The implications of transporter tech were obvious, and many things (e.g., the colony worlds) only make sense with at least industrial (if not shipboard) level replicators. By the TNG era they'd just gotten a lot more sophisticated and ubiquitous, and could be used for things like holodecks, organ transplants, and the like.

Basically, I've always thought of the TOS era as a post-scarcity society, and the TNG era as a more advanced post-scarcity society. IOW, in the 23rd century they'd already worked out the technology (and the economic systems) for handing all basic human needs, without requiring full-time human labor... but out on the frontier things were often a little more seat-of-the-pants. By the TNG era they'd advanced to the point where they could handle luxuries without breaking a sweat, and even a starship or a colony world apparently functioned more like a resort hotel.

(I generally kinda hate to rely on VOY as a source for anything... but FWIW, as Memory Alpha reminds me, "By the founding of the Federation in the 22nd century, capitalism was no longer the economic system of Earth, being replaced by the New World Economy. According to Tom Paris, it was around this time that 'money went the way of the dinosaur.' (VOY: 'Dark Frontier')")

I mostly agree.

And as for relating this to the thread topic!... What it means is that, obviously, no single parent would be forced to turn to the other, absentee parent (and endure all the emotional drama involved) just for the sake of "child support"... much less to bring legal coercion to bear for that purpose. The well-being of the child would simply never be in question. So if Carol wanted to raise David on her own, there would be no reason for Kirk to feel guilty about cooperating with that. (Although, of course, he might have wished she had preferred otherwise.)

Yeah, definitely. I'm sure Federation of any era has really robust social security system.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

My conclusion is that the most probable and natural outline of Kirk's career is that after being commissioned an ensign Kirk served on the Republic under Captain Garrovick and then transferred to the Farragut along with Captain Garrovick - Kirk said Garrovik was Kirk's commanding officer from the time Kirk left the Academy until Garrovick was killed. Kirk was a lieutenant, apparently under Garrovick, 13 years before the second season according "A Private little War" and eleven years before the second season according to "Obsession".

It is my belief that the most natural and probable outline of Kirk's career would have his teaching at Starfleet Academy be sometime after the Farragut disaster and before Kirk returned to space and got rapidly promoted to captain. So if David Marcus was born during this period it would be chronologically possible for him to be old enough to be a PHD in WOK, but the chronology would be tight.

This is exactly the conclusion I've come to on my ST timeline.

 

[Tenacity]

n in the TOS era they obviously had "food synthesizers" aboard ship

Well, TOS obviously had a rapid food delivery system, and some kind of a "automated food handling" system. Whether that food was synthesized or came from storage is far less than obvious.

and could be used for ... organ transplants

They could not manufacture Picard a new heart, nor Neelix a new lung, so no.

post-scarcity society

Post-scarcity society? Nahhhh.

This comes up from time to time, and while the future is more comfortable than our own, it's not a "post-scarcity society."

So if Carol wanted to raise David on her own, there would be no reason for Kirk to feel guilty about cooperating with that.

Kirk could feel guilt about not being there for David, not being a part of his life, not communicating with his own son. Not simply saying no when Carol initially tried to push Kirk out of David's existence.

Guilty for not stepping up.

 

[lawman]

Whether that food was synthesized or came from storage is far less than obvious.

In "Day of the Dove," Kirk ordered a crewman to "program the food synthesizer to accommodate our [Klingon] guests." Doesn't seem like Klingon chow is something they'd have in storage.

They could not manufacture Picard a new heart, nor Neelix a new lung, so no.

In TNG "Ethics," it was a risky new experimental procedure to replace Worf's spinal cord.

This comes up from time to time, and while the future is more comfortable than our own, it's not a "post-scarcity society."

How do you figure? It's the only reasonable interpretation of how the Federation functions.

Kirk could feel guilt about not being there for David, not being a part of his life, not communicating with his own son. Not simply saying no when Carol initially tried to push Kirk out of David's existence.

All of this, I agree with. Just saying that none of it amounts to guilt over not providing "child support." The occasional accusation that David's existence makes Kirk a "deadbeat dad" is completely misplaced.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In "Day of the Dove," Kirk ordered a crewman to "program the food synthesizer to accommodate our [Klingon] guests." Doesn't seem like Klingon chow is something they'd have in storage.

Yep.

That doesn't make it necessary that food synthesizers were replicators, though. What it means is that it's not a system for fetching meals from storage.

"Synthesizer" with "food" implies making food out of non-food components. It could be some kind of chemistry lab that's a part of the waste recycling system and that additionally might be somewhat analogous to a super-duper 3D printer that maybe uses nanotechnology but doesn't utilize anything like transporter tech as a principle component.

 

[lawman]

True. Could be. We don't know much of anything about the underlying tech.

But we don't really need to. A system like you posit, that automatically recycles waste and can fabricate new stuff, including stuff as complex as edible food, at a molecular level — even if it's not as sophisticated as TNG-era replicators — is clearly very much a component of a post-scarcity society. It fits into a context where material needs can be and are taken care of with relatively minimal input of human labor or nonrenewable materials.

(Indeed, as extrapolations of a credible post-scarcity society go, it arguably fits better... since in Trek overall, transporters and anything related to them come as close to "magic tech" as anything else except warp drive. Nanotech is much more plausible.)

 

[Shawnster]

This comes up from time to time, and while the future is more comfortable than our own, it's not a "post-scarcity" .

How do you figure? It's the only reasonable interpretation of how the Federation functions.

There are examples of critical needs that cannot be filled via replicator. Pergium is one. The Horta was preventing the pergium miners from doing their job and this was a big issue in The Devil in the Dark. Apparently pergium could not be replicated but was a necessity. Dilithium is another example. If either could be replicated, there would not be a need for mines. Zenite from Cloud Minders is yet a third example.

All three are scarce materials that require mining and cannot be replicated. All three were also necessary for the long term stability of the Federation.

 

[lawman]

Sure, there are plenty of examples of fictional materials in Trek canon that are hard to find and/or manufacture. In SF it's always easy to cook up some variation of Unobtainium to drive the plot of a particular story (although, aside from James Cameron's Avatar, most stories aren't quite so blatant as to actually call it that).

But actual real human needs? Food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care, computing power, and so on? Goods made from materials that actually exist? They've got those covered.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Sure, there are plenty of examples of fictional materials in Trek canon that are hard to find and/or manufacture. In SF it's always easy to cook up some variation of Unobtainium to drive the plot of a particular story (although, aside from James Cameron's Avatar, most stories aren't quite so blatant as to actually call it that).

But actual real human needs? Food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care, computing power, and so on? Goods made from materials that actually exist? They've got those covered.

Except when they don't, like on Tarsus IV in 2246, and it's the inciting incident of a story worthy of being turned into an episode, instead of another day ending in "y."

 

[XCV330]

But actual real human needs? Food, clothing, shelter, education, medical care, computing power, and so on? Goods made from materials that actually exist? They've got those covered.

We have, in the west, food supply taken care of pretty well, for the most part.
But let's say a some solar EMP event fries every single ignition system on most motor vehicles AND takes out the power grid at the same time.

Those frozen peas and butterball turkeys arent going to help much after a couple of weeks. In a month next door neighbors will be looking at you like a rack of ribs. Having something covered doesn't always mean there are adequate back-up plans in existance.

 

[lawman]

Except when they don't, like on Tarsus IV in 2246, and it's the inciting incident of a story worthy of being turned into an episode, instead of another day ending in "y."

Definitely a noteworhty exception. But Tarsus IV was a colony, possibly a rather remote one, and it fits Trek continuity to infer that a lot of colonies (at least in the 23rd century) didn't have the same level of material or technological resources as the Federation home worlds. Indeed, a lot of them seem to have been settled by people who wanted to get away from the "comfortable" life back home.

We have, in the west, food supply taken care of pretty well, for the most part.

That last clause is quite a caveat. Even in the United States, hunger is still a serious problem. According to the USDA, 41 million Americans suffer from food insecurity, including over 20% of households with children.

Having something covered doesn't always mean there are adequate back-up plans in existance.

Sure. I'm not saying the Federation is impervious to any and all emergencies. I'm just saying it has a fundamentally different economic structure from present-day capitalism, one where all ordinary human needs are met under ordinary circumstances, and therefore issues like holding an absentee parent responsible for "child support" simply do not arise.

We don't know exactly what alternative economic model United Earth (and subsequently the Federation) settled on. There are certainly multiple options to choose from. (It's actually an interesting area of study.) We just know that it works.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But Tarsus IV was a colony, possibly a rather remote one, and it fits Trek continuity to infer that a lot of colonies (at least in the 23rd century) didn't have the same level of material or technological resources as the Federation home worlds. Indeed, a lot of them seem to have been settled by people who wanted to get away from the "comfortable" life back home.

Indeed.

 

[lawman]

One can imagine why some would savor the challenge. After all, it is the final frontier!...

 

[lawman]

Anyway, to circle this back around to the original question!...

FWIW, there's an actual story that covers this — DC Comics' Star Trek v2 #73-74, "Star Crossed." In that version, Kirk and Carol are first involved when he's taking the Kobayashi Maru test at the Academy; they renew their relationship years later (c. 2260) when he's an XO and she's posted to his ship, but she leaves Starfleet when she becomes pregnant. A year or two later (c. 2262) he's promoted to his first command; he learns of David and offers to set it aside and marry her, but Carol declines and tells him to pursue his career.

There's also S.D. Perry's novel Inception, which is not exactly one of anyone's favorites and is a little tricky to square with the above but could, possibly, be sandwiched between its endpoints... Carol is working in a research project on Earth & Mars (presumably having just left Starfleet; one of her colleagues is Leila Kalomi, who meets Spock at this point, so it's six years before "This Side of Paradise," c. 2260-61), and is still involved long-distance with Jim, who's still serving as an XO, but ultimately breaks things off without telling him she's pregnant. (It doesn't touch on when he actually finds out.)

And a few years after that...

Actually, Faces of Fire is set roughly halfway into the Enterprise's original 5YM, circa early 2268 (I think right before the TOS episode "The Immunity Syndrome," according to internal storyline-cues). But yup -- Greenberg is exactly right, re: Spock, David, and Kirk's relationship during the course of the book (also, McCoy has some great scenes, too).

The Vanguard series also deals to a certain extent with the whole "Carol/David" situation, since she gets posted to Starbase 47 a bit after the events of Faces of Fire to oversee Operation Vanguard there.

As for Faces of Fire, regardless of whether or not one treats it as Kirk's first knowledge of David, it can't fall halfway through the FYM. The obvious reason for this is, in fact, Carol's involvement on Vanguard, where she's based from Reap the Whirlwind (around the very beginning of TOS, just weeks after "Where No Man") all the way through the station's destruction in Storming Heaven (around the end). Faces can't be before or during that period, and would therefore have to fall sometime after it, toward the end of the FYM.

 

[1001001]

That last clause is quite a caveat. Even in the United States, hunger is still a serious problem. According to the USDA, 41 million Americans suffer from food insecurity, including over 20% of households with children.

That's a distribution problem, not a production problem.

Hopefully in our bright, optimistic future of Star Trek, they've figured that dynamic out.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I dropped out of the DC Trek comic before Star Crossed. I should track that down.

I have Inception, but I only got about halfway through it when I tried reading it before. I don't think I had any major problems with it; life just got in the way. It doesn't really work with my timeline as I currently have it, unfortunately. I remember really liking the notion of linking Carol Marcus and Leila Kalomi. A botanist is certainly a logical person to get involved with Carol's terraforming efforts.

 

[Timo]

There are examples of critical needs that cannot be filled via replicator. Pergium is one. The Horta was preventing the pergium miners from doing their job and this was a big issue in The Devil in the Dark. Apparently pergium could not be replicated but was a necessity. Dilithium is another example. If either could be replicated, there would not be a need for mines. Zenite from Cloud Minders is yet a third example.

Interestingly, all these needs predate the replicators, and all disappear when we move to the replicator era.

The TNG society appears free of all material need - only villains or losers have mines.

That's a distribution problem, not a production problem.

Which brings us back to Carol Marcus. How does Genesis help with hunger? It can't selectively make a planet lusher and more fertile without turning its original inhabitants into worms, it seems. How would Genesis-bombing Mars in 2285 help with the putative hungry on Earth, any more than Genesis-bombing Antarctica would help Sahel today? (Or does every hungry planet have a Moon nearby, even though Sahel isn't sufficiently close to, say, Madagascar? Can you move the food with transporters/trains, instead of ships?)

Hopefully in our bright, optimistic future of Star Trek, they've figured that dynamic out.

Well, Marcus spoke of problems of supply, rather than distribution. And there are farming worlds in the UFP, even in the 24th century. Are those exporting? Perhaps the shipping capacity is there, even when we never see a proper bulk transport after ENT...

Tarsus IV could be a case in point, relying on food shipments and having no local production capacity whatsoever. A domed mining colony on a dead planet? The more common such a setup, the less odd the lack of comment in the episode.

Timo Saloniemi