• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

We could've had the First Asian Female Captain, but no....

Obviously, I disagree otherwise I wouldn't have presented her as an example. As far as I'm concerned Rey and Burnham have been designed to possess whatever traits required to satisfy both in story presence and wishful expectations of society in general. Is it bad to have these characters guaranteed a rite of passage whereby they upstage everyone else? I suppose not, but it doesn't go unnoticed.
Yet Luke Skywalker somehow didn't represent audience wish-fulfillment while, with zero hours of experience in the model that he piloted, upstaging every other experienced X-wing and Y-wing pilot who he flew with?!

There aren't enough roll eyes for this double-standard, but I'll at least start the ball rolling:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Obviously, I disagree otherwise I wouldn't have presented her as an example.
Well, it's an example of you citing something as a "Mary Sue" that doesn't actually fit that definition. The defining characteristic of a Mary Sue is that she has all the usual characteristics one expects from a hero, but carried to a hilariously excessive degree purely for the satisfaction of the author.

Basically, the character version of the Scimitar: it's got 52 disruptors and 26 torpedo launchers, double layer shields, a fighter bay, a flesh-melting wave motion gun capable of slagging entire planets, AND it can fire while cloaked. A villain being hilariously overpowered just sets your protagonist up for an underdog victory, but when the HERO is hilariously overpowered, the writer is either screwing around with wish fulfillment, or he's going for satire.

As far as I'm concerned Rey and Burnham have been designed to possess whatever traits required to satisfy both in story presence and wishful expectations of society in general.
That's entirely possible, yes. But that's not what a "Mary Sue" is.

A character that acts as an avatar for the wishful expectations of society in general is an "archetype." Superman, for example, is an archetype: he's a strong, virtuous hero who always does what is right even at great personal expense. Superman is hilariously and almost disastrously overpowered, and his writers have at various times just pulled new powers out of their ass just because superman needed a way out of whatever hole they had written themselves into. But superman is not a Gary Stu, because he isn't an avatar for THE AUTHOR. He's an avatar for the kind of hero the author (and by extension, society) idealizes as the ideal protector, which is one of the reasons why more modern treatments of superman lore have almost messianic overtones.

Put this another way a writer who creates a story about finding The Perfect Girlfriend isn't creating a Mary Sue character. The writer whose protagonist IS The Perfect Girlfriend -- especially if this is done unironically -- most likely is.

Is it bad to have these characters guaranteed a rite of passage whereby they upstage everyone else? I suppose not, but it doesn't go unnoticed.
Indeed. But it also isn't a characteristic of Mary Sues.
 
Well, it's an example of you citing something as a "Mary Sue" that doesn't actually fit that definition. The defining characteristic of a Mary Sue is that she has all the usual characteristics one expects from a hero, but carried to a hilariously excessive degree.
Well I think Rey and Burnham do...
 
Well I think Rey and Burnham do...
But they don't. A Mary Sue is the self-insertion of an author into his or her own story in the person of an unrealistically perfect character. Neither of these characters are unrealistically perfect, and for that matter, neither of them are author self-inserts, considering that both of them were developed by TEAMS of writers and not by individuals.

It's just a term you are misusing. Nothing more.
 
The way the world at large (media, internet and audiences) defines 'Mary Sue' nowadays is an OP female character. Term has evolved from it's original meaning with regards to fanfiction.

Because so many female leads are written with Equity in mind (making her great and writing the men to look bad in order to level the playing field), writers and producers often fall into the 'Mary Sue' trap with these characters.

Soon enough this will die out.

A random example of an awesome female character done well is Valkyrie in Thor Ragnarok. Very rarely do you see a female pull off the role of the drunken and flawed 'Han Solo' pirate archetype so well.
 
But they don't. A Mary Sue is the self-insertion of an author into his or her own story in the person of an unrealistically perfect character. Neither of these characters are unrealistically perfect, and for that matter, neither of them are author self-inserts, considering that both of them were developed by TEAMS of writers and not by individuals.

It's just a term you are misusing. Nothing more.
But they do, lol. Michael fighting Kol was kind of funny.
 
The way the world at large (media, internet and audiences) defines 'Mary Sue' nowadays is an OP female character. Term has evolved from it's original meaning with regards to fanfiction.
I wouldn't be surprised if most of us participating in such interpretations haven't checked out the origins and common usage of the term. It's interesting and has evolved or some might say devolved.

"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfilment and is commonly associated with self insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies for the author...the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.

It's kind of cool that it found its roots in Star Trek (fanfiction).
 
Come on, any reasonably competent woman can make most men look bad. That's just being realistic. :p


aztt0mrlt8w2idfvcdxw.gif
 
But they do, lol. Michael fighting Kol was kind of funny.
"Being funny" isn't the definition of a Mary Sue either.

Now, if Michal had BEATEN Kol in single combat, that would be one thing. Hell, if she had at least held her own in a way that made it look like she could have easily taken him if she had more time, that would be another. But that's not what happened; she was perhaps 15 seconds from getting her ass whupped when Discovery beamed her back.

"Mary Sue" is not just an all purpose word for "female hero." Stop pretending like it is.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of us participating in such interpretations haven't checked out the origins and common usage of the term. It's interesting and has evolved or some might say devolved.

"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfilment and is commonly associated with self insertion.
That IS the original meaning. It hasn't changed that much. And the fact that none of the things you have listed fit this definition is the issue here.
 
"Being funny" isn't the definition of a Mary Sue either.

Now, if Michal had BEATEN Kol in single combat, that would be one thing. Hell, if she had at least held her own in a way that made it look like she could have easily taken him if she had more time, that would be another. But that's not what happened; she was perhaps 15 seconds from getting her ass whupped when Discovery beamed her back.

"Mary Sue" is not just an all purpose word for "female hero." Stop pretending like it is.
Hey you're the one who introduced being funny in the definition ;) Quote you " characteristics one expects from a hero, but carried to a hilariously excessive degree".

Sorry but you're not going to talk me down out of my interpretation. Michael is a Mary Sue.
 
Many audiences and myself are willing to accept 'Mary Sue' characters if they are charming though.
Hayley Atwell as Peggy Carter for example. Very, very likeable.

Michael Burnham... not charming, not likeable.
 
Peggy Sue?

I don't think Peggy is a Mary Sue either, though I agree with Kane that Michael wasn't overly likeable. Now I'm not saying being likeable is the very definition of being a Mary Sue but it does factor into it.
 
The way the world at large (media, internet and audiences) defines 'Mary Sue' nowadays is an OP female character. Term has evolved from it's original meaning with regards to fanfiction.
Most of the "world at large" isn't even familiar with or concerned with the term. It's a fandom thing, and it's a toxic fandom thing that has manipulated it to mean "female character I don't like" or "one that exhibits traits no different from any male lead but which I suddenly have a problem with now that it's a woman."
Because so many female leads are written with Equity in mind (making her great and writing the men to look bad in order to level the playing field), writers and producers often fall into the 'Mary Sue' trap with these characters.
I don't know what's worse, the fact that you write about seeking (oddly capitalized) Equity between male and female characters like that's a bad thing, or that you automatically associate men with being at a higher level in all respects than women and that women have to be elevated and men lowered in order to achieve equity of characterization.
 
Last edited:
I don't even think I need to address that, but I will.

It's because men have generally always been portrayed as the heroes in media and women as the 'damsels in distress' or eye candy.

Some writers and producers definitely fall into the trap of making the female characters OP and Mary Sues while making the male characters weaklings, incompetent or villainous for the sake of Equity and elevating the females (you'll see this on STD, Star Wars TLJ and more).

Marvel Studios, however, does a good job balancing great male and female characters, without dragging one down to elevate the other. It really just depends on the talent behind those involved creatively.
 
The only thing more Mary Sue than George Lucas' protagonist "Luke S." is Eugene Wesley Roddenberry's protagonist "Wesley Crusher".
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top