Are there any inherent advantages to a one nacelled ship design?

[Crazy Eddie]

"Captain, assuming we have full warp capability, accelerating to warp seven on leaving the solar system will bring us to IP with the Intruder in 20.1 hours."

[Minutes later]

"Mr. Scott, we need warp drive as soon as possible."
"Captain, it was the engine imbalance that created the wormhole in the first place. It'll happen again if we don't correct it!"
"That object is less than two days from Earth. We need to intercept while it still is out there."

[A few more minutes later]

"...Repair time: Less than three hours, which means we will be able to intercept Intruder while still more than a day from Earth."

So we know V'Ger is traveling at a speed where it can cover the same distance as the Enterprise did at warp seven in twenty hours in about twenty-four hours, so V'Ger is traveling at a bit less than warp seven. Assuming, of course, Starfleet's estimates weren't building in about four hours for the sublight approach, in which case V'Ger was probably traveling at exactly warp seven.

And my point is, if warp speed is a unit of acceleration rather than absolute speed, then this becomes much more complicated to figure out.

Which it pretty much has to be, for the very simple reason that V'ger is clearly NOT traveling at warp speed during the encounter with Epsilon IX. Depending on the size of the cloud (2 or 82, whichever version you prefer) it couldn't be going more than a couple of times faster than light speed, or else the station would have seen the cloud go screaming right past it like in just a couple of seconds.

A velocity slow enough to encounter the space station but fast enough to be two days away from Earth would put V'ger pretty much right on the edge of the solar system, about a tenth of a light year away. That's a distance the Enterprise could cover in about 16 hours accelerating and then decelerating at 30,000Gs. This would seem to (problematically?) suggest Epsilon IX is a listening post right on the edge of the Sol System.

On the other hand, at constant velocity (say, 500C) V'ger would have been intercepted about 10000 light hours from Earth, or about 1.1 light years. Epsilon IX would be, at most 2 light years away from Earth, which (problematically?) suggests it's still a listening post on the edge of the Sol System.

IMO, the first option is simply more likely, since it also explains the unusually slow flyby of Epsilon IX.

 

[Lord Other]

No. The explanation that fits the relevant facts without relying on unnecessary guesses is usually the correct one. Omitting relevant information to preserve simplicity results in an incorrect explanation.

Getting reflective are we? What information am I omitting sir? Point it out if you would be so kind. You're the one who admitted to omitting pertinent information in a discussion simply because you do not like the source material, but I'm so glad you came around to my line of thinking in the end.

In which case, Kirk's initial log entry noting the seeming impossibility of finding another Earth Ship that close to the barrier would be rather silly.

Pardon me, but have you met the episode, "Spock's Brain"? I think you both should meet..

It's not like the name of the episode is "Where everyone but us has gone before."

You're thinking of Star Trek TNG.

We have multiple instances of starships doing exactly this throughout Trek history, so it's evidently possible. Significantly, nothing implies that it ISN'T possible, so we can safely conclude that the ship can, in fact, attain superluminal velocity without warp drive. A really great example of this is "Relics" where the Enterprise, under 60% impulse power, covers a distance of about 90 million kilometers in 2 to 3 minutes, implying an average velocity about twice the speed of light (at below C, that would have taken almost 9 minutes).

And similarly it can be pointed out that there have been times when the Enterprise should be booking at warp speed but is not covering a distance stated at nearly the pace it should be, go figure eh?.

Soren's solar probe on Veridian III is another example: given that it is almost certainly a main sequence star (since both the 2nd and 3rd planets are Earth-like worlds in its habitable zone) then the distance is anywhere between .7 and 1.3 AUs. Either way that probe -- which takes off like a small rocket and doesn't seem to be equipped with anything as fancy as a warp drive -- would have to be traveling at an average velocity of over 100 times the speed of light to make that trip in just a couple of seconds.

Given that I don't think chemical rocket motors will be able to propel Soran's missile into the sun at warp speed, it seems likely the missile likely makes use of some unseen deus ex machina to get the plot moving along. Be it a transwarp coil, a really powerful ion storm with subspace effects, or simply the hand of gawd- it happened in canon, so it is what it is for the Prime universe.

The FACT is any distance that would require "days" to reach at some relatively high warp speed (meaning, more than one day) would be on the order of hundreds of light years.

Again with the assumptions being called FACTS. Here's some FACTS: You have no datum to infer the Enterprise traveled to the Great Barrier at any great speed, nor again do you have a referent of ANY distance, other than the support bases being "years in the distance.." You can just as accurately describe the Enterprise traveling to a support base, years away at .25c as you can at FTL because, and here's the shocker.. *drum roll* you HAVE NO INFORMATION ABOUT THE DISTANCE TO THE BASE OTHER THAN A VAGUE REFERENCE. Stop trying to infer something you have no concrete data point on as a FACT when its absolutely not the case.

There's no call to assume the ship is limited to sublight velocity on impulse power, so that's a guess we don't need (and it's contradicted by other stories). There's no call to assume Kirk is saying "years" when he really means "centuries" either, so that's also a guess we don't need. We don't know where Delta Vega is relative to the barrier, but we know whoever built that outpost didn't make it as close to the barrier as the Enterprise did (or even the Valiant, for that matter) so Delta Vega being close enough to the edge for convenient impulse power is another guess we don't need.

Except that Kirk specifically calls out that the space warp ability is gone, which you seem to be unable to comprehend. And again there's no reason to talk about centuries, when he said years. I'm glad you can admit that the location of Delta Vega is not specified, but again you make an assumption that whether UESPA or an Earth corporation built that outpost, they had the resources, interest, and/or time to go out past Delta Vega and see what was there. I submit the exploration of the Earth's oceans for evidence to the contrary of your assumption- lots of people live close to the ocean, but less is known about it than the surface of the moon, why? Because there's been no direct advantage for people spend their resources to investigate it, in general. As a result you can have millions of people living right next door geographically to one of the most unexplored places on the Earth.

What fits the facts without those unnecessary guesses? That Enterprise CAN travel at superluminal velocity without warp drive, just not nearly AS fast. What else fits the facts? That warp drive, like impulse power, is a unit of acceleration rather than absolute speed, and that travel times reflect both the time spent accelerating and decelerating. This latter assumption is NOT a guess, because it's the way spacecraft actually work in the real world. So to assume that Star Trek propulsion systems work entirely differently is, in fact, another unnecessary guess.

What guesses am I making? Can you provide a concrete example instead of an inference. Impulse power at sublight speed still fits the facts with or without relativistic speeds, but I have news for you- there are examples of the Enterprise traveling at good percentages of c at relativistic velocities without the crew batting an eyelash. For example, during the "The Corbomite Maneuver" when Balok is towing the Enterprise, the crew is completely unperturbed at the following, and it is stated very matter of factly..

SPOCK: He's sneaked power down a bit.
SULU: Our speed is down to point six four of light.

..thus at .64c the Enterprise crew would experience 280 days of travel time for every light year traveled, along their own worldline. Even so, they don't suddenly break into discussions of time dilation effects or how long it will take them to get to the First Federation world. Why? Because it's not relevant to the narrative of the story- you, I and the rest of the audience know Kirk and crew will escape, so that discussion is moot. Simply, you don't need a huge exposition to explain how, why, and when the ship will travel from point A to point B, because it does nothing to entertain the audience. As an aside I will also point out the following scene from the beginning of the story, when the Enterprise is attempting to move away from the First Federation cube..

BAILEY: Course plotted and laid in, sir.
KIRK: Engage, Mister Sulu. Quarter speed.
SULU: Point two five, sir. Still blocking us, sir.
KIRK: Let's see if it'll give way. Ahead half speed.
SULU: Point five oh, sir.
SPOCK: Radiation from the short end of the spectrum increasing.
KIRK: All stop. Hold position.
BAILEY: It's still coming toward us. Range, one hundred ninety metres.
SPOCK: Radiation increasing.
KIRK: Power astern, half speed.
SULU: Half speed.
SPOCK: Radiation nearing the tolerance level.
BAILEY: Still coming, gaining on us.
KIRK: Engines astern, full speed.
SULU: Full speed.
BAILEY: Range one hundred twenty five metres now.
KIRK: Helm, give us warp speed.
SULU: Warp one, sir.

I can hear you now.. .25 of what? .25 of c? .25 of the speed of sound? This is where I will infer that the unit of measure provided in the self-same episode perhaps is the most relevant measure. It seems to be a logical idea to me, but that's up to each audience member to decide because of the vagaries of the writing. Regardless, the call out for "Helm, give us warp speed." implies that "full speed" of impulse is higher than half of whatever, but less than 1c.

As for the rest of your response.. blssdwlf's post speaks for itself in that regard and I don't think I need to further elaborate in kind on what he had to say.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And similarly it can be pointed out that there have been times when the Enterprise should be booking at warp speed but is not covering a distance stated at nearly the pace it should be, go figure eh?

That's the idea. Warp speeds seem to be oddly slow in some cases but oddly fast in others. So it's already a given that warp factors do not correlate directly with a specific velocity relative to the aether.

So that leaves three options:
1) Speeds vary depending on local conditions
2) Warp factors are units of power/acceleration used to drive the ship
3) Speed of plot

The third is the correct one (obviously). The first two depend on assumptions that aren't in evidence, but occam's razor would tend to rule out the first one since it requires us to invent a totally different environmental/physical effect we know nothing about. The second case is more likely, however, since it suggests something we already know to exist in the real world and whose existence is not, in fact, a guess. If we can assume that things in Star Trek TEND to work the same way they do in reality, the 2nd option is the preferable one.

Again with the assumptions being called FACTS. Here's some FACTS: You have no datum to infer the Enterprise traveled to the Great Barrier at any great speed

Well, they traveled there under warp power and left under impulse power. So however they got there, impulse power was fast enough to get them at least in range of Delta Vega in a reasonable amount of time. The only way this is possible is if impulse power is capable of producing relatively high FTL velocity, but NOT as high as warp drive (the difference between "days" and "years," not the difference between "days" and "centuries.")

Except that Kirk specifically calls out that the space warp ability is gone

Sure. He doesn't say that their ability to travel faster than light is gone. That is, evidently, easily achievable under impulse power.

What guesses am I making? Can you provide a concrete example instead of an inference. Impulse power at sublight speed still fits the facts with or without relativistic speeds, but I have news for you- there are examples of the Enterprise traveling at good percentages of c at relativistic velocities without the crew batting an eyelash.

Which is irrelevant as time dilation is not a factor in the Star Trek universe. This is evidently because it doesn't actually HAPPEN to the Enterprise for reasons they have not bothered to explain.

Not should we expect it to, in the examples you cite, since there isn't actually anything relative to which they would be measuring their velocity in the first place. If we're assuming they're measuring by "solar windspeed velocity" or something (basically, "aether") then they would only be observing time dilation with respect to the gas particles flying past them at that moment. Not really worth mentioning in that case.

I can hear you now.. .25 of what? .25 of c? .25 of the speed of sound?

Actually I was going to say that .25 appears to be a throttle setting, not a speed measurement. But even in the latter case the question remains ."25 relative to what?"

 

[Lord Other]

That's the idea. Warp speeds seem to be oddly slow in some cases but oddly fast in others. So it's already a given that warp factors do not correlate directly with a specific velocity relative to the aether.

So that leaves three options:
1) Speeds vary depending on local conditions
2) Warp factors are units of power/acceleration used to drive the ship
3) Speed of plot

The third is the correct one (obviously).

Well, colour me surprised.

The first two depend on assumptions that aren't in evidence, but occam's razor would tend to rule out the first one since it requires us to invent a totally different environmental/physical effect we know nothing about. The second case is more likely, however, since it suggests something we already know to exist in the real world and whose existence is not, in fact, a guess.

If we can assume that things in Star Trek TEND to work the same way they do in reality, the 2nd option is the preferable one.

Especially in regards to your pet theory, and in exception to time dilation, right?

Well, they traveled there under warp power and left under impulse power. So however they got there, impulse power was fast enough to get them at least in range of Delta Vega in a reasonable amount of time. The only way this is possible is if impulse power is capable of producing relatively high FTL velocity, but NOT as high as warp drive (the difference between "days" and "years," not the difference between "days" and "centuries.")

Why centuries? You keep stating centuries, when I fail to see why. Explain your logic. Be exact. Do not infer.

Sure. He doesn't say that their ability to travel faster than light is gone. That is, evidently, easily achievable under impulse power.

I disagree - you have yet to convince me of this- why on Earth would someone mention that their vessel's space warp ability being gone for if it didn't pertain to their FTL capability?? It would be like someone saying, "my F-15 fighter's supersonic ability is gone, but I can still make Mach 2." And as much as you might keep saying something is a FACT, it does not make it so unless you can provide specific, supporting evidence, which you have yet to do.

Which is irrelevant as time dilation is not a factor in the Star Trek universe. This is evidently because it doesn't actually HAPPEN to the Enterprise for reasons they have not bothered to explain.

If it is given that time dilation is not relevant to the narrative (even if the ship is able to travel at high percentages of c), then the same could/should be said of your warp acceleration pet theory. If there is no support for time dilation via dialogue and there is no extant verbal support for the other as well, inferring one over the other is a matter of personal preference, not of FACT, and should be referred to as such.

Actually I was going to say that .25 appears to be a throttle setting, not a speed measurement. But even in the latter case the question remains ."25 relative to what?"

..and you missed the point, which was this, "..the call out for 'Helm, give us warp speed.' implies that 'full speed' of impulse is higher than half of whatever, but less than 1c." However you want to slice or dice it- .25, .5, or full impulse (speed or throttle setting makes NO difference) the vessel is moving at a speed that is less than Warp Speed. The dialogue allows for no other assessment within this narrative, it is clear and implicit with what is stated.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I disagree - you have yet to convince me of this- why on Earth would someone mention that their vessel's space warp ability being gone for if it didn't pertain to their FTL capability??

Because warp drive is faster than impulse power... ALOT faster, in fact. Impulse engines having FTL capability is actually massively unhelpful if they are several thousand times slower than warp engines.

It would be like someone saying, "my F-15 fighter's supersonic ability is gone, but I can still make Mach 2."

Well, no, it's exactly like being on the side of the road saying "My engine is gone, but I can still get out and walk. Towns that were just hours away are now days in the distance." Nothing in this statement implies the car can or cannot go a particular speed, only that driving would have been a lot faster.

If it is given that time dilation is not relevant to the narrative (even if the ship is able to travel at high percentages of c), then the same could/should be said of your warp acceleration pet theory. If there is no support for time dilation via dialogue and there is no extant verbal support for the other as well

Well, there's the fact that acceleration is something spacecraft are known to do in the real world, where as traveling at a constant sped relative to the cosmic aether is not. Likewise, a field drive like a warp engine (and possibly an impulse engine, depending on how you interpret the background material) wouldn't result in time dilation effects in the usual sense. Plus the fact that even REAL WORLD theoretical models for warp engines would cause acceleration, not forward motion at a constant velocity (as natural warp fields also do).

..and you missed the point, which was this, "..the call out for 'Helm, give us warp speed.' implies that 'full speed' of impulse is higher than half of whatever, but less than 1c."

Assuming that "warp speed" is identical to "1C" in which case the question once again is "1C relative to what?" Speed or "velocity" is a function of distance over time, and in space you need something to measure distance TO in order to determine velocity. Velocity cannot logically be measured in a vacuum... but ACCELERATION can.

We don't actually know that "warp speed" is equivalent to C at all, and my point is/has been, it probably isn't. It's probably equivalent to a unit of acceleration.