David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?

[The Old Mixer]

I think that bit of business gives us an implication that maybe Kirk was around a bit when David was young, and David vaguely remembers it without having realized its significance. Still, I was always of the impression that he put 2 + 2 together himself after having met Kirk in the film.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's even possible that he had suspected it for years, but had never confronted his mom about it. Which might explain the seemingly offhand way he alludes to, you know, "that overgrown Boy Scout," etc. He knows and maybe she knows that he knows, but he politely refrains from pressing her on the subject.

So there's no big revelation scene in the movie ("Kirk is my father?") because it wasn't all that big a secret, more like the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. And then, down in the caves, Kirk and David don't recognize each other at first, mostly because of the circumstances. They're both on alert and keeping an eye out for the hostiles that just slaughtered the space station crew.

 

[danellis]

Kirk's reactions have always struck me as "OMG I have a son," more than "OMG I'm finally meeting my son," which suggests he didn't know there was a "little Jimmy" running around there at all.

Similarly, the "you're David" comment always sounded to me like "you're David? I always think of him as a toddler."

My take on it is:
He's a young, junior Starfleet officer but very, very ambitious. He's on Earth (probably, certainly on *a* world): meets and falls for Carol Marcus, a young, equally ambitious scientist. They have an intense relationship that's threatening to get serious when one or other of them gets posted elsewhere.

This is completely made up on my part, but I reckon it's her that gets posted away and Kirk wants to jack it all in to follow her: talking about getting a job as an academy teacher or starbase XO, something like that. She knows that would kill him inside and that he'd end up resenting her for it so calls the whole relationship off. After they've parted she realises that she's pregnant but follows the same logic and decides against telling Kirk.

It's a few years later; long enough that Kirk doesn't "so the maths" on David. They randomly meet again and start "hanging out." Whether they rekindle the relationship or not is neither here nor there. Nevertheless, Kirk meets Carol's son, David. David is old enough to remember Kirk in the future. I'm guess 8-13 years maybe?

More time passes; they get on with their lives until Kirk gets assigned as a senior admiral overseeing Genesis. He deals with Carol but not David.

TWOK.

dJE

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kirk's reactions have always struck me as "OMG I have a son," more than "OMG I'm finally meeting my son," which suggests he didn't know there was a "little Jimmy" running around there at all.

I don't agree.

If Kirk didn't know David was his son, then why would he ask "Is that...David?" Who else could Kirk possibly think David is?

I mean, if Kirk thought David was Carol's son but fathered by someone other than him, he wouldn't have phrased the question in that manner. Indeed he probably wouldn't have asked her about David at all, if that had been the case.

 

[lawman]

After they've parted she realises that she's pregnant but follows the same logic and decides against telling Kirk. ... It's a few years later; long enough that Kirk doesn't "so the maths" on David.

I can't really buy that. If you reunite with an old girlfriend and discover that she's a single mother with a son of a certain age, you do the math.

Plus, again, Carol just doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would keep that kind of information from Jim. She's independent-minded, but not duplicitous.

Besides, it would simply make for better drama (of exactly the kind you describe) if they talked about it at the time. He grew up with a father who was often away on Starfleet missions yet was still a strong positive influence, for instance, but she would have reasons for not wanting that. He would offer to settle down, but she would recognize how that would affect him. That all works better if they both know there's a child involved.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"I did what you wanted...I stayed away" doesn't make a helluva lot of sense in any other context but Kirk knowing that David was his son.

 

[danellis]

I don't agree.

If Kirk didn't know David was his son, then why would he ask "Is that...David?" Who else could Kirk possibly think David is?

I mean, if Kirk thought David was Carol's son but fathered by someone other than him, he wouldn't have phrased the question in the manner that he did. Indeed he probably wouldn't have asked her about David at all, if that had been the case.

Like I said, the intonation sounds to me like David's someone he thinks of as a kid ,as in "bloody hell. Is that... David. Why on earth isn't he 12 any more?"

It's certainly a storyline that leaves a lot for different interpretations - I'm sure there are tons of English Lit essays written on it lol

dJE

 

[1001001]

"I did what you wanted...I stayed away" doesn't make a helluva lot of sense in any other context but Kirk knowing that David was his son.

Of course.

I don’t even see why this is a discussion.

He absolutely knew she had his child.

 

[GNDN18]

I find this thread to be thought-provoking. The last unexamined belief I had was that James T. Kirk was an honorable man and honorable men do not abandon their children. So, for a long time, I took it for granted that Carol kept it a secret and Kirk was blamessly off the hook.

Over the years, I’ve modified my beliefs about agency, parenting, and integrity. Honor—as I understood it—is not the simplistic virtue I once held; neither are the choices made by these parents incompatible with integrity. On the contrary, Carol summed it up nicely when she said “You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine.” Kirk acceded to her wishes and life went on.

I was 13 when I saw TWOK at the theater. Precocious, Roman Catholic, and ripely adolescent, I saw Kirk as I would a father figure, as someone to take as a model. These discussions, as tedious as they might seem, have been tremendously helpful for me. Much of what formed me bears some examination.

ETA: In consequence, I changed my vote. Clever feature, that.

 

[Greg Cox]

Like I said, the intonation sounds to me like David's someone he thinks of as a kid ,as in "bloody hell. Is that... David. Why on earth isn't he 12 any more?"

Yep.

"Wait. That angry young man who just jumped me was David, all grown up?"

Kirk is still trying to process what just happened, in the middle of a life-or-death crisis, when he reacts to the news. Which is why he sounds confused. Not because he didn't know he had a son, but just that he didn't expect to get tackled by said son while investigating a massacre conducted by another skeleton from his closet.

 

[UssGlenn]

Ok I'm on board with the line being "why didn't you tell him". My timeline doesn't change, except Kirk finds out about David's existence and his paternity when he meets up with Carol during the 5 year mission. The only question mark is that Spock doesn't know David is Kirk's son. We see Kirk tell Spock the news during TWOK. Don't know about McCoy.

 

[Kronos]

I doubt Kirk told anyone, somethings even friends don't know.

 

[DonIago]

"I did what you wanted...I stayed away" doesn't make a helluva lot of sense in any other context but Kirk knowing that David was his son.

Because people in a relationship that's ended never ask their ex to give them space?

 

[The Old Mixer]

It implies that Kirk had a reason for wanting to come around and visit after they'd broken up. The entire discussion revolves around David. "Why didn't you tell him?" "You had your world and I had mine, and I wanted him in mine." That she was raising Kirk's son while he stayed away is something that he was obviously already familiar with, not a revelation to him. These were conditions of parenthood they were discussing, not conditions of a breakup. It's so blindingly obvious that I have to leave this here as punctuation:

I don’t even see why this is a discussion.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps Kirk wanted to visit to see his son, even if he wasn't going to reveal the fact that he was his father, and Carol didn't want that?

To me, there is a certain amount of (not necessarily unjustified)...I hesitate to use the term selfishness...in Carol telling Jim that she didn't even want David to know Jim was his father because then David might want to learn more about Starfleet and such.

In the movie novelizations, one thread that's brought up is that David's death in TSFS is exactly the kind of thing Carol dreaded would occur if David ever did explore Kirk's world.

I'm reminded of a storyline in Six Feet Under in which a woman has an abortion without telling the boyfriend she recently broke up with, and when she does end up telling him he appears quite upset that he wasn't even consulted about the decision (it's a little hard to tell how he genuinely feels about the subject). On the one hand, I'm very pro-choice and believe the decision does ultimately lie with the woman. On the other, though, I do feel it's morally...a little dubious...not to even tell the father until the abortion has already occurred.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Perhaps Kirk wanted to visit to see his son, even if he wasn't going to reveal the fact that he was his father, and Carol didn't want that?

Um, yeah...wanting to visit his son would kinda mean that he knows that he has a son, wouldn't it? Which brings us back to what you were responding to:

"I did what you wanted...I stayed away" doesn't make a helluva lot of sense in any other context but Kirk knowing that David was his son.

 

[DonIago]

The response you just responded to was going by the premise that Kirk did know David was his son.

In any case, I don't see why you need to imply that anyone who can't see something the way you do must be somehow deficient. How is that productive?

 

[Push The Button]

I doubt Kirk told anyone, somethings even friends don't know.

I think that McCoy may have known about David .. "It never rains, but it pours." This remark suggests that he at least knew about the relationship with Carol, and the breakup.

Sometimes a man will tell his bartender things that he'll never tell his doctor.

Spock may have accidently discovered the truth during one of his four or so mind-melds (that we are aware of) with Kirk prior to the events in TWOK.

 

[danellis]

I find this thread to be thought-provoking. The last unexamined belief I had was that James T. Kirk was an honorable man and honorable men do not abandon their children. So, for a long time, I took it for granted that Carol kept it a secret and Kirk was blamessly off the hook.

Even if he did know about David-as-son, Kirk undeniably IS an honourable man, so even if he was absent at Carol's request, there's no reason to think that he "abandoned" David: I can't imagine that he failed to make whatever child support payments (or equivalent) or commitments were required of him.

... I don't see why you need to imply that anyone who can't see something the way you do must be somehow deficient. How is that productive?

I think this thread has been notably free of such "thinking."

I think that McCoy may have known about David .. "It never rains, but it pours." This remark suggests that he at least knew about the relationship with Carol, and the breakup.

I always took it as meaning McCoy knew about Kirk's former relationship with Carol. Can anyone remember if Spock's knowledge of her was anything other than professional: they're both leading scientists?

dJE

 

[DonIago]

^When people say that certain things are "blindingly obvious", to me there's an implied rebuke to anyone who doesn't view them the same way.