Did Picard get Court Martialed after Generations?

[Timo]

Deserted? Deserted what? There is no evidence of desertion. Not every officer or every ship sees combat during war.

But the Enterprise would, obviously, this being Star Trek. And these officers never even mention fighting, yet do express the desire to do something more worthwhile - this being "exploration" rather than defending the Federation against a ruthless juggernaut that was on the verge of killing trillions till the last days of the war.

As for the Dominion, they are mentioned 3 times in the movie.

And every reference is in contradiction with the idea of an ongoing conflict. The Dominion does not negotiate while the war goes on - "Statistical Probabilities" would have put an end to that already. The other two references are to past challenges, associated with lists of other explicitly past challenges. And our heroes are breaking bread with people who during the war were key allies to the Dominion - okay for postwar, out of the question during the war.

There is no evidence the Enterprise and our heroes haven't been involved.

There's direct evidence - Picard laments they have been doing nothing of the sort in living memory, not exploration, not combat, but things directly comparable to "negotiating a territorial dispute at Nevahurd XIIII".

They just happen to be on a diplomatic mission at the moment of the movie.

And are next headed to hover over an archaeological dig on a schedule measured in "seasons". Meanwhile, the rest of Starfleet is supposed to fight the losing battle we see in DS9? While letting Worf have a bit of free time during which he never laments his absence from Sisko's side?

Yeah, there's no indication that Picard didn't report Kirk's (second) death.

No indication that he would have, either. And what's with him hiding the evidence under a pile of rock?

(Not the corpse, obviously, as he could never hope to drag that up the mountain. But he very deliberately abandoned Kirk's badge on that planet rather than taking it with him to be delivered to next of kin. In addition to constructing a private memorial, unnecessary if there was going to be official recognition of the death and subsequently an appropriate non-private memorial.)

Picard would do his duty and give a full report on the Nexus and anything arising from it, Kirk included.

Probably not, considering this would be unusual of him. He's good at keeping secrets, or sharing them with just his bartender rather than with his superiors.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[David cgc]

We didn't on DS9 but I guess with that line in Insurrection we are supposed to think they were talking. I don't know about you guys but that doesn't sound like The Dominion to me and I've felt that way since the first time I heard that line back in 1998.

I always took it as negotiations that were an effect of the ongoing Dominion War, not negotiations with the Dominion itself (which would probably be phrased as just "busy with the Dominion"). Like, nailing down the alliance with the Romulans, or being given the runaround by the Breen.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

But the Enterprise would, obviously, this being Star Trek. And these officers never even mention fighting, yet do express the desire to do something more worthwhile - this being "exploration" rather than defending the Federation against a ruthless juggernaut that was on the verge of killing trillions till the last days of the war.

And every reference is in contradiction with the idea of an ongoing conflict. The Dominion does not negotiate while the war goes on - "Statistical Probabilities" would have put an end to that already. The other two references are to past challenges, associated with lists of other explicitly past challenges. And our heroes are breaking bread with people who during the war were key allies to the Dominion - okay for postwar, out of the question during the war.

And are next headed to hover over an archaeological dig on a schedule measured in "seasons". Meanwhile, the rest of Starfleet is supposed to fight the losing battle we see in DS9? While letting Worf have a bit of free time during which he never laments his absence from Sisko's side?

It's for precisely these reasons that, for me, Insurrection comes after "What You Leave Behind." Trying to reconcile the film with what Deep Space Nine showed us contemporaneously is difficult, if not outright impossible.

 

[The Wormhole]

The problem I always have with "Insurrection takes place after WYLB" reasoning is that it really wasn't the intent at all. This is obvious because of the deleted scene with Quark showing up on the Ba'ku planet at the end and Picard deciding he'll take him and Worf back to DS9. I know, deleted scenes don't count, but it shows that as far as anyone making the movie is concerned, this was supposed to be concurrent with the DS9 episodes airing at the time. Hell, wasn't there also a line in the shooting script indicating Worf was still married to Jadzia? The stuff about Dominion negotiations and the Enterprise seemingly not involved in the war effort can be chalked up mostly to the fact that Michael Piller not being involved with DS9 at this point and was unaware beyond broad strokes. Hell, the Dominion and Cardassians are referred to as separate entities at one point in the movie. It's no worse than the Voyager characters being seemingly unaware of who or what the Dominion are in the fourth season, despite having a flight simulator program on the holodeck in the second season involving combat with a Dominion ship.

 

[Timo]

On the issue of whether intent counts, I'll just agree to disagree. Specific points, though:

Hell, the Dominion and Cardassians are referred to as separate entities at one point in the movie.

And they would be, in the context of the reference: first, there's the challenge from the Borg, then from the Cardassians, and only then from the Dominion.

What specific challenges would those be, "within 24 months" of the movie? The Borg last made major noises in ST:FC as far as we know, after a long hiatus, so that's something we can honestly use - and AFAWK, the last Borg incident we can use. More ambiguously, the Cardassians were down for the count till "By Inferno's Light" but then stabbed all of Alpha in the back in that episode, and then the Dominion War started, so we can argue there were fitting major challenges that came soon after ST:FC. But is ST:FC just two years before ST:INS? That is, in the model where INS is postwar?

Well, stardate-wise, it can be exactly 24 months before: 50893 for ST:FC, 52920 for the end of the war in "What You Leave Behind". And why would Rua'fo pick 24 months specifically if not for the major ST:FC Borg challenge? That is, why pick some earlier Borg challenge and along with it an earlier date for the movie (when canon has no such challenge to offer), or the ST:FC challenge but an earlier date (a date that just gives nonsensical challenge-free months before the first relevant challenge)?

It's no worse than the Voyager characters being seemingly unaware of who or what the Dominion are in the fourth season, despite having a flight simulator program on the holodeck in the second season involving combat with a Dominion ship.

The major difference being that the simulation was Starfleet stuff, while the people who didn't know were Maquis.

At the time the ship sailed from DS9, the existence and threat of the Dominion would be a major military secret - something Sisko would make Janeway aware of (along with donating whatever tactical data Starfleet had), but also something Janeway would not further share unless she had to.

That Rua'fo knows of major events is a function of three things: those really were major, the information was available, and Rua'fo has made it his business to know his ally/victim/enemy. The Dominion thing would be obscure, the information would be withheld, and it would not be of central concern to the Maquis yet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

The major difference being that the simulation was Starfleet stuff, while the people who didn't know were Maquis.

The Doctor also did not recognize the name Dominion when he heard it from the Mark 2 EMH in Message in a Bottle.

EMH: I'm afraid you don't have that luxury. There are two ships at stake here, yours and mine. Now, I need to know more about what's happening. Is the Federation at war with the Romulans?
EMH2: No. The Romulans haven't gotten involved in our fight with the Dominion.
EMH: The who?
EMH2: Long story.

 

[Timo]

Yup, I guess we can add the medical automaton to the list of parties not needing to know...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Leviathan]

Court Martial? Nah. They just blamed it on Troi.

 

[Kronos]

He got away in Generations but was court martialed for the idiotic prime directive violation he committed when he dune buggied around in Nemesis.

 

[David cgc]

He got away in Generations but was court martialed for the idiotic prime directive violation he committed when he dune buggied around in Nemesis.

The 24th century is so soft. Being seen on a dune buggy from a hundred feet away is a criminal violation of the Prime Directive. Oh, please.

I remember back when, if you wanted to get in trouble with the PD, you had to reshape an entire society into a perfect duplicate of Nazi Germany, or blast thousands upon thousands of club-weilding cave-people into atoms with your phaser. Now, "cultural contamination" is being seen indistinctly by a couple of desert bumpkins who are probably drunk off their scaly asses, what with them shooting at every other motorist they see. I bet no one even believed them when they got into town, "Oh, there were some trespassers, and when you tried to shoot them, they drove off a cliff and flew off into the sky? Yeah, I bet."

 

[ICNSoft]

Or did Riker?

We learnt in season 2 that a court martial is compulsory if a captain loses their ship.

The events surrounding the loss of D where they are destroyed by the tinpot BoP was very farcical.

Picard let an emotionally unstable officer continue to serve whose lapses was instrumental in the kidnapping of the Chief Engineer. This team is too attached to each other for my liking, so it's deskjob for Captain Picard if I'm the one banging the gavel. Instead they get a slick new ship! This would've never have happened under Jellico's watch.

Your thoughts?

Jellico's ship was presumed to be destroyed in DS9 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[trekfan39]

Jellico's ship was presumed to be destroyed in DS9 if I'm not mistaken.

You are correct the USS Cairo was destroyed off screen in a DS9 episode but Jellico was no longer the Captain, the ship was commanded by Leslie Wong when it was presumed lost.