Ranks in STAR TREK

[fireproof78]

As opposed to all the corrupt admirals?

Admirals and bureaucrats and other leaders being "evil" has been a part of Trek since TOS. GR tried to handwave it away in TNG with "Conspiracy" with aliens, but that trend continued on, even in that series with Admirals like Kennelly, or Nechayev, or Captain Tracey.

Hardly a "DS9" invention...

 

[GabyBee]

Whenever Section 31 gets exposed, they tend to react with this level of subtlety and success...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

As opposed to all the corrupt admirals?

Admirals and bureaucrats and other leaders being "evil" has been a part of Trek since TOS. GR tried to handwave it away in TNG with "Conspiracy" with aliens, but that trend continued on, even in that series with Admirals like Kennelly, or Nechayev, or Captain Tracey.

Hardly a "DS9" invention...

There's weren't any corrupt admirals in TOS, as I recall. There was the evil Captain Tracey, but we has a captain. Fleet Captain Garth was a fleet captain. Commodore Decker may or may not have been a flag officer, but he wasn't evil, he just lost it, and he redeemed himself.

The other flag officers, commodores, Federation commissioners etc. who created obstacles for Kirk were just that: obstacles for Kirk, but they were following their own orders and weren't necessarily imaginative or sympathetic characters. Sometimes they were incompetent, like Commodore Stocker in "The Deadly Years."

I realize that you used scare quotes, but none of them were actually evil. The evil admiral trope really began to flower in TNG. Arguably the quintessential example is Admiral Pressman from "The Pegasus."

 

[fireproof78]

There's weren't any corrupt admirals in TOS, as I recall. There was the evil Captain Tracey, but we has a captain. Fleet Captain Garth was a fleet captain. Commodore Decker may or may not have been a flag officer, but he wasn't evil, he just lost it, and he redeemed himself.

The other flag officers, commodores, Federation commissioners etc. who created obstacles for Kirk were just that: obstacles for Kirk, but they were following their own orders and weren't necessarily imaginative or sympathetic characters. Sometimes they were incompetent, like Commodore Stocker in "The Deadly Years."

I realize that you used scare quotes, but none of them were actually evil. The evil admiral trope really began to flower in TNG. Arguably the quintessential example is Admiral Pressman from "The Pegasus."

Fair enough. Also "scare quotes?" What are those?

Secondly, I would agree about TNG, but I would also make the argument regarding Admiral Cartwright as well.

My larger point is the idea that Starfleet leadership is somehow above underhanded tactics until DS9 and Section 31 came along is, in my opinion, not accurate.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Fair enough. Also "scare quotes?" What are those?

Secondly, I would agree about TNG, but I would also make the argument regarding Admiral Cartwright as well.

My larger point is the idea that Starfleet leadership is somehow above underhanded tactics until DS9 and Section 31 came along is, in my opinion, not accurate.

Cartwright, yes, great example. Note, however, that TUC was produced after TNG began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes

 

[fireproof78]

Cartwright, yes, great example. Note, however, that TUC was produced after TNG began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes

Huh, weird. Ok.

Again, my only point is simply that corrupt or underhanded tactics are not unique to DS9 and Section 31.

 

[STEPhon IT]

As opposed to all the corrupt admirals?

Admirals and bureaucrats and other leaders being "evil" has been a part of Trek since TOS. GR tried to handwave it away in TNG with "Conspiracy" with aliens, but that trend continued on, even in that series with Admirals like Kennelly, or Nechayev, or Captain Tracey.

Hardly a "DS9" invention...

Are they part of Section 31??? Were these characters implanted into the further dwelling plots within Starfleet??? You're trying waaaay too hard not to understand. Stay focus.

 

[fireproof78]

Are they part of Section 31??? Were these characters implanted into the further dwelling plots within Starfleet??? You're trying waaaay too hard not to understand. Stay focus.

Ok, let me reframe. Why is Section 31 equal to Star Trek's demise?

I think there is a stronger argument to be made that S31 could be useful in a commentary sense given current concerns regarding survelliance, government power and the like.

I also think that a greater argument could be made that TWOK=death of Trek, as it was largely outside of Gene's vision for Star Trek.

 

[Shawnster]

Section 31 is a highly classified clandestine organisation with no headquarters and isn't officially recognised by Starfleet Command, why would they have their own insignia?

The same reason the Borg have a logo?

 

[Tenacity]

You know, there was a time Trek wasn't this insidious place where it needed Black Op guerrillas to solve problems.

Yes, during TOS it was our own heroes (and not guerrillas) that engaged in black ops, violating the sovereign territory of their neighbors to steal technological secrets, going undercover on peacefully planets to train the locals in guerrillas warfare, threatening civilians with death unless resources were handed over, terrorist bombings, overthrowing governments, kidnapping government officials.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Fuck yeah! General Order 24 all the way bitches!

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, during TOS it was our own heroes (and not guerrillas) that engaged in black ops, violating the sovereign territory of their neighbors to steal technological secrets, going undercover on peacefully planets to train the locals in guerrillas warfare, threatening civilians with death unless resources were handed over, terrorist bombings, overthrowing governments, kidnapping government officials.

Hey, they just stole that cloaking device for SCIENCE!

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The same reason the Borg have a logo?

I may be mistaken, but the first/only time we see the Borg logo is with Lore and his 'separatists' so it was most likely something they used to show their break from the Collective.

If it was seen before or after that point then it could simply be a remnant of the Borg species before they began cyberisation that, despite their advancements and lack of a cultural identity, has simply stayed with them over time.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Ok, let me reframe. Why is Section 31 equal to Star Trek's demise?

It's an old idea from DS9 and it continues to poison the well retroactively. ENT stepped on it and it doesn't work. Why can't these writers think of something fresh or better yet invent other factions fragmented who banded to do these deeds in another Alien organization and the cancer is within that society, and the heroes stop them? Why is this from the bowels of the Federation? I can't understand the regurgitation of stories where the Federation's hands are dirty. You call this sh*t Star Trek??? This is old hat and it's boring.

Section 31 is useful commentary on an episode of Mission: Impossible or The X-Files not Star Trek.

The cynicism Hollywood has on government and which party has the White House is obvious and not very good storytelling for me. DISC is proving to be another long sh*tpile like ENT smearing TOS as they continue to move along. Section 31 was Ira Behr's equivalent of the mythical Freemasons, now they're known to be in Trek's underbelly from the beginning. Absolutely pathetic.

I think TUC was outside of Gene's vision than TWOK.

 

[Timo]

I may be mistaken, but the first/only time we see the Borg logo is with Lore and his 'separatists' so it was most likely something they used to show their break from the Collective.

It's curious that Lore's faction used the logo, as it indeed is a mainstream Borg thing: it was first seen on the wall of a Borg Cube corridor in "Q Who?" already.

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x16/qwho_hd_368.jpg

If it was seen before or after that point then it could simply be a remnant of the Borg species before they began cyberisation that, despite their advancements and lack of a cultural identity, has simply stayed with them over time.

Indeed. But "Q Who?" also features other types of red "Borg writing" on black wall panels like the above, making one wonder what possible use the cyberoids have for such primitively visual relaying of information. At least "Q Who?" avoided giving the Borg any obvious display screens, although later Borg episodes added some of those, too.

Oh, well. At least giving the Borg a continuing interest in visuals makes it plausible for the heroes to use the visual ruse of "I, Borg"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

It's an old idea from DS9 and it continues to poison the well retroactively. ENT stepped on it and it doesn't work. Why can't these writers think of something fresh or better yet invent other factions fragmented who banded to do these deeds in another Alien organization and the cancer is within that society, and the heroes stop them? Why is this from the bowels of the Federation? I can't understand the regurgitation of stories where the Federation's hands are dirty. You call this sh*t Star Trek??? This is old hat and it's boring.

Section 31 is useful commentary on an episode of Mission: Impossible or The X-Files not Star Trek.

The cynicism Hollywood has on government and which party has the White House is obvious and not very good storytelling for me. DISC is proving to be another long sh*tpile like ENT smearing TOS as they continue to move along. Section 31 was Ira Behr's equivalent of the mythical Freemasons, now they're known to be in Trek's underbelly from the beginning. Absolutely pathetic.

I think TUC was outside of Gene's vision than TWOK.

Well, I disagree on it completely, but I admire your passion, even if I don't equate Section 31's continuance with the death of Star Trek.

 

[Tenacity]

Why is this from the bowels of the Federation

Because the Federation is a diverse and complicated cosmopolitan society compose of nearly a tillion individuals, each of whom has a unique perspective?

As oppose to everyone in the Federation being required to think exactly the same, and all having the identical philosophy.

 

[fireproof78]

As oppose to everyone in the Federation being required to think exactly the same, and all having the identical philosophy.

We expect it from Klingons so why not the Federation?

 

[Tenacity]

^ I don't expect it from the Klingons, and the federation is spelled out as being a assembleage of different species. We know from modern and historical examples that Humans look at situations, problems, and solutions from a wide variety of viewpoints. Even if there were a attempt at "picard-verse" indocrination (and I hope there would not be) you're not going to get billion of Humans to think the same.

Add, we seen that Vulcan can be a varied bunch too, they don't all follow the company line.

Now, figure in all the other species that form the federation, differences between species, and differences within the species.

Section 31 is usually thought of as a fairly small organization, but if the full story of what went on during the Dominion War were dissiminated to the federation populace, how many billions would endorce S31's actions.

 

[fireproof78]

^ I don't expect it from the Klingons, and the federation is spelled out as being a assembleage of different species. We know from modern and historical examples that Humans look at situations, problems, and solutions from a wide variety of viewpoints. Even if there were a attempt at "picard-verse" indocrination (and I hope there would not be) you're not going to get billion of Humans to think the same.

As a general rule, if Klingons are not identical to TNG era, there are usually questions raised.

As a rule, I agree. I don't expect monolithic cultures from the Federation, Klingon Empire, or Romulan Empire. I would love to see more diversity, and here the various opinions, just like I would want from the Federation.

I highly doubt the larger Federation populace would tolerate S31's actions.