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Size of other major powers needs to be addressed

Yes, when the Gorns said that Earth outpost was their, the outpost wasn't evacuated.
Yes it was. The one and only survivor from that outpost was evacuated to the Enterprise; the Gorn killed everyone else.

Later on, having finally defeated the Gorn in single combat, Kirk laments:
KIRK: No. No, I won't kill you. Maybe you thought you were protecting yourself when you attacked the outpost.​
Which is Starfleet's attitude in a nutshell: Kirk is admitting that he doesn't know if the outpost was in Gorn territory or not. If it was, then it's a legitimate act of self defense and a tragic loss of life. If it was not, then the Gorn are agressors and Kirk should bash his head in with a rock so they never pull this shit again.

Apparently a diplomatic compromise was eventually reached that allows Federation citizens to still live on and/or trade with Cestus III, so interstellar war was obviously averted in this case.

From the clues we're given, it seems more of a collection of autonomous entities, than some kind of interstellar super-state.

Example, Earth would be primarily focused on the affairs and activities of Earth, with the fact they're a Federation member being a lesser concern.
I would have thought so, except in the TNG era they often use the words "humans" and "Federation citizens" interchangeably, and there are many implications that Earth is the most important world in the Federation and the only one that needs to be defeated to bring down the whole works. I think the 23rd century is a lot less centralized; the Klingons might be focussed on attacking Earth, Vulcan, Tellarites and Filthy Andorians and be mostly ambivalent to the other 32 members. Those four core members seem to make up most of the resource structure and funding for Starfleet, so this kind of makes sense.

In short, the Federation is the EU, and Earth is Germany.
 
The Federation is much more than the UN, simply because their laws are above each World’s laws and
Plasus, High Advisor of Ardana (from The Cloud Minders): " Your Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments."

Sounds like the Federation's laws are not above a member planet's laws.

... and because Starfleet is a centralized army that provides defense to all members.
Casus foederis, from the Latin for "case for the alliance"

The NATO treaty, article five, the article commits each member state to consider an armed attack against one member state, in Europe or North America, to be an armed attack against them all.

The OAS treaty (Rio treaty), obligates the members to consider an attack from outside the region against any member nation to be an attack against all.

A defense treaty between the US, NZ and Australia contains similar language.
In short, the Federation is the EU, and Earth is Germany.
So, the Federation council's power is limited, with the majority of the Federation's governing power rest within a shadowy "Federation Commission" composed of a unelected oligarchy?
Those four core members seem to make up most of the resource structure and funding for Starfleet
Or just Earth.
 
To me, there is no greater priority or more interesting story element than exploring the sizes of the other galactic powers.

It should be done immediately if not sooner.

Otherwise, I will revolt. And Roddenberry's vision. And F-you, JJ.
 
Very glad to see I stirred a good discussion!
However, the main point is still contentious. It seems from what we gather that Klingons were expansionists in nature - if anything for survival reasons. Assuming the same density of inhabitable planets and civilizations than the alpha quadrant, they MUST have crossed the path of other species and conquered them. It just seems natural.
They obviously have conquered many planets. We saw them doing just that with Organia (even though that didn't go exactly as planned) and we know they had subjugated Kriosians. We also saw loads of different alien prisoners on Rura Penthe.
Also, while it is true that the Federation doesn't expand through conquest, it is also true that it needs a quite sizeable army to defend itself from external threats - as deterrent if anything. After all, this is quite a large organization!
Then again, every time they actually fight the Klingon Empire, they get their arse kicked.
 
Did we ever figure out who the war-weary Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror" had been fighting for his entire career, since we know it wasn't the Federation?
 
Did we ever figure out who the war-weary Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror" had been fighting for his entire career, since we know it wasn't the Federation?
maybe tussling with the Breen for a long time? They'd known them long enough to have proverbial sayings about them. Since some maps show them not TOO far apart, and since Romulans collectively have a 2 year old's sense of "mine" seems possible they had run-ins with them. The Breen certainly got involved in the Dominion War quickly enough once the Romulans were all-in.
 
The Breen would be on the wrong side of UFP-known space for a rivalry with the Romulans, since DSC is operating on the "ST: Star Charts is useful for framing the story" principle.
 
Would the Orion Syndicate worlds be considered a "buffer nation" for Federation and Klingon "Imperial" purposes?
 
The Romulans are surrounded on "three sides" by the Federation and the Klingons on most of the maps I've seen, with a narrow funnel on the "fourth side" leading to unclaimed space. I guess that busy enemy came from there.
 
Did we ever figure out who the war-weary Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror" had been fighting for his entire career, since we know it wasn't the Federation?
I would guess the Klingons, since when they're not swapping ships and forming evil anti-Federation alliances they're usually giving each other aggro.
 
maybe tussling with the Breen for a long time? They'd known them long enough to have proverbial sayings about them. Since some maps show them not TOO far apart, and since Romulans collectively have a 2 year old's sense of "mine" seems possible they had run-ins with them. The Breen certainly got involved in the Dominion War quickly enough once the Romulans were all-in.

Interesting. That would leave a prolonged period of detente and/or cold war stand off towards the tail end of the century between TOS and DS9 in order to explain the Breen developing their energy dampening weapon essentially from scratch such that the Romulans were taken as completely by surprise as everyone else.
 
So, the Federation council's power is limited, with the majority of the Federation's governing power rest within a shadowy "Federation Commission" composed of a unelected oligarchy?
Pretty much...

Or just Earth.
... which is your prime suspect for the source of that oligarchy. That would explain why both the Klingons and the Romulans have a hardon for conquering Earth; they both understand that Earth is the fulcrum of power for Starfleet and through Starfleet they are the center of the web that holds the Federation together.
 
The Breen would be on the wrong side of UFP-known space for a rivalry with the Romulans, since DSC is operating on the "ST: Star Charts is useful for framing the story" principle.
space doesn't really work like continents though.for starts its three dimensional. The Falklands aren't close to the UK and are not easy to defend, but its still part of the UK.
 
To me, there is no greater priority or more interesting story element than exploring the sizes of the other galactic powers.

It should be done immediately if not sooner.

Otherwise, I will revolt. And Roddenberry's vision. And F-you, JJ.
Size matters, but measuring size and comparing the results... now that's worthy of our attention.
 
space doesn't really work like continents though.for starts its three dimensional. The Falklands aren't close to the UK and are not easy to defend, but its still part of the UK.

You're not wrong. I still hope to get a better sense of how things play out along the Z-axis over the next few years.

(And Geoffrey Mandel and his support team on Star Charts should still be brought in as consultants in this.)
 
You're not wrong. I still hope to get a better sense of how things play out along the Z-axis over the next few years.

(And Geoffrey Mandel and his support team on Star Charts should still be brought in as consultants in this.)
Reposted from the Trek Tech forum:

I noticed years ago that every map I have ever seen attempting to chart the Star Trek universe looks something like this:

startrekstarchart.jpg


Which is essentially a two dimensional projection from a "top down" perspective, assuming the Milky Way to be a relatively flat "disk", the thickness of which can safely be ignored. It's just 1000 light years, after all, and the Federation is (some would think) bigger than that anyway so you don't need to worry about thickness.

This has always bothered me on a fundamental way, not least of which because of the fact that in a disk 1000 light years thick, you could easily have as many as 500 stars layered on top of each other that would all appear to be in almost the exact same spot in a 2D map. If a number of those stars are inhabited or strategically important, that would make the "top down" projection less than useless for any practical purposes.

But after a couple of months playing Elite Dangerous and getting used to the idea of trying to navigate in the true vastness of 3D space, I happened to make a surprisingly long and annoying errand for remarkably wealthy tourist and I noticed something interesting:

pp_galaxymap_powerview_screenshot_1920x1080.jpg


ED_map_2.jpg


Space is BIG.

You can actually stack several irregularly-shaped spheroid regions on top of each other in various complex arrangements, encompassing literally HUNDREDS of stars and planets each, and all of that with plenty of space in between (neutral planets for them to fight over) without going more than 500 light years from Sol.

It occurred to me, for example, that in my annoying tourist mission and the followup supply run that I had actually passed through systems controlled by three completely different governments in less than an hour. I was struck by the fact that if you were looking at the galaxy map from directly above the plane, this would seem really weird; the Empire, Independent and Federation holdings are more or less on opposite sides of the map from each other. But when you rotate the field and look at it from different perspectives you see they aren't "next" to each other at all, but actually wrapped around each other in complicated, winding blobs whose shape is determined almost entirely by how successful they are in holding on to systems in that region of space.

This is the thing that seems to screw up so many would-be start chart makers: the obsession with 2D. In a three dimensional galaxy, it doesn't take a whole lot of volume to encompass a very large number of stars and planets. The entire Romulan Empire could easily fit into a sphere just twenty light years in diameter and could still contain over a hundred stars and planetary systems; so, too, could the Klingon Empire still contain a huge number of stars and planets without actually being "large" in any absolute or relative sense. This would also explain why we can't figure out from dialog where the hell any of these big empires are in relation to each other and why it seems so weird that every major power in the galaxy somehow shares a border with every OTHER major power. It's because they DO, and because the sphere of influence of each empire are all packed together like pomegranate seeds inside the larger sphere of what most people not-quite-accurately refer to as "explored space."

tl;dr: Star Trek star charts don't make any sense when confined to two dimensions. They should quite literally have "ups" and "downs" in the scale of their various empires and one would expect that several of them would be "above" and "below" federation space while others are "next to" or even "wrapped around" it in some ways. It's also unlikely that any of these empires are going to have a regular, perfectly rounded shape or even be entirely contiguous: it could be common practice for governments to bypass huge regions of totally useless systems that consist of nothing but brown dwarfs and iceballs and then truck out sixty light years to annex a star with an Earthlike planet and then five of its neighbors for good measure.
 
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