But, the Cardassian boy demonstrated self hatred for being a Cardassian. He and the other Cardassian orphans were raised to despise all things Cardassian. They were taught Cardassians were evil. Imo, this are decidedly different circumstances.
My Bigotry Towards the Xenophobic Talarians: Episode, "Suddenly Human"
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But, the Cardassian boy demonstrated self hatred for being a Cardassian. He and the other Cardassian orphans were raised to despise all things Cardassian. They were taught Cardassians were evil. Imo, this are decidedly different circumstances.
Star Trek: Typhon Pact ebook “The Struggle Within” by Christopher L. Bennet (Christopher’s „Kampf“ in the German edition).
I didn't say the two cases were the same. There were fundamental differences. I brought up "Cardassians" to point out that the child's wishes should not be the sole factor in determining where the child should go.
About the Karl Urban movie, I remember seeing that movie.It was a part of their culture to raise the children of enemies orphaned by their war, a culture that Jono is now a part of. It suggests that they do not necessarily glorify killing but rather deem it as a necessary evil. We do not know what caused the war between the Talarians and the Federation, but it is highly probable that they did not view themselves as villains. As much as I detest war, I do not believe it is so simple to compare it to murder (for example, when our soldiers come home we do not imprison them for the lives they regrettably took while serving in duty). The Talarians did what they believed was right in good faith based on their own ethical code, and it is not our place to pass judgement on their system as being wrong. The Federation does not hold to the same line of thinking as colonial era Europeans.
I saw a movie a number of years ago with Karl Urban, that feels very similar to this type of story. It was about a Viking boy who was orphaned during a raid by his people in North America. He is found by a tribe of Native Americans and raised as one of them. Years later when he (Karl Urban) is an adult, the Vikings come back and he fights to save his new people from his old. He no longer identifies as a Viking but rather as a Native, in a similar manner to how Jono now identifies as a Talarian and not a human.
The whole point of this episode was that we as humans would have a difficult time understanding the Talarian culture, and we would view it with hostility. Captain Picard however is sufficiently enlightened to learn respect for their way of life even when he strongly disagrees with it. It would have been better if Jono's parents had never died, and it would have been great if he had been rescued right away by Starfleet and brought to his grandmother, but that is not what happened. I always felt this was a good episode: we did not get the happy ending we wanted, but we did not force our values upon someone else. This is how humanity has evolved by the 24th century!
It was an interesting story from what I can remember.Back to the topic, why should Talarian customs trump human customs and values? I understand that the Talarians believed what they did was right based on their ethical code. But I'm sure Jono's biological grandmother and many others don't see it that way.
The Talarians should have repatriated the boy as soon as possible after they found him.
But even after all that time had passed, does the ends justify the means? Should the kidnapper be allowed to keep the kidnapped child just because so much time had passed and the child had bonded with the kidnapper? I know this thinking might be from a human perspective. But isn't it a legitimate p.o.v. as well?
Or why couldn't there have, at least, been a compromise? Shouldn't Jono's grandmother and the rest of his biological family be given the opportunity to visit with the boy before any decision was made? Or some other compromise concerning visitation?
The OP wrote that he had disdain that they didn't even realize how outgunned they were. I suppose you can at least respect the Talarians for standing up and be willing to risk war for what they believe is right. Which is more than what could be said for Picard.
That's the point though, is that it defies our logic. We cannot make an argument to rationalize it, other than simply accepting that this is the Talarian way of life. Jono was young when this happened, but the Talarians believed they were doing the right thing, and now he wants to remain with them. He started off as a human but is part of their culture now. We completely disagree with it, and we don't have to agree, we just have to accept it. Picard would have had to use physical force to remove Jono from Endar - to do so would not be enlightened. We can call the Talarians murderers and kidnappers, but in their mind everything they did was done in good faith. We call them those names because their actions do not agree with our values. This is a very difficult thing to accept.
This is one whacked-out launching point for a topic.
As I recall, the producers were thrilled to get the young actor who played Jono as a guest star for this show - he was big on some other TV series at the time, and this episode was shot during the first part of TNG's "Celebrity Guest Star" phase that signaled show's wide popularity following the BOBW two-parter.
As I recall, the producers were thrilled to get the young actor who played Jono as a guest star for this show - he was big on some other TV series at the time, and this episode was shot during the first part of TNG's "Celebrity Guest Star" phase that signaled show's wide popularity following the BOBW two-parter.
It's doubtful to me that things would have worked out well if Jono had been sent forcibly to live with his grandmother, and it seems like it would be a violation of UFP law to essentially imprison someone in that manner. Most likely I see him making an effort to return to Talarian space and ending up killed or imprisoned for criminal acts in the process.
Regarding Rugal's case in "Cardassians", I kind of understand what Sisko was going for (and consider his unique perspective on being a single father) with regards to the notion that Rugal should have been allowed to learn that Cardassians weren't uniformly evil, but tearing him away from his Bajoran family didn't seem to be doing him any favors either. Along that line of thinking, I can't possibly recommend the novel "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" highly enough.
Regarding Rugal's case in "Cardassians", I kind of understand what Sisko was going for (and consider his unique perspective on being a single father) with regards to the notion that Rugal should have been allowed to learn that Cardassians weren't uniformly evil, but tearing him away from his Bajoran family didn't seem to be doing him any favors either. Along that line of thinking, I can't possibly recommend the novel "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" highly enough.
In 1968, American forces all but wiped out the Vietcong during the Tet offensive, after they mistakenly tried to take on American forces out in the open. The very few survivers were for the most part intergrated into North Vietnam regular forces.
As a minor child, the teenager doesn't get to make that level of decision, that would be up to the surviving family, in this case the grandmother.
He obviously was suffering from Stockhom Syndrome, and should have been sent back home (his real home), been reunited with his actual family, and received phycological counciling. In the 24th century the vast majority of his live was ahead of him, his future shouldn't be deteremined by the murderer of his parents, his kidnapper.
Once more, Picard making a flawed decision from the security of his evolved culture bubble.
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Thanks for the history lesson. My point still stands: the US lost the war to an "inferior" enemy.
Not quite. The US elected a democratic Congress that reneged on the Paris Peace Accords, and emboldened the North V to press after they had already conceded to peace.
The US did not lose and did not surrender; the Demoratic Congress forfeited, and handed NV hundreds of thousands of SV lives. But "good intentions" make hands clean.
But NV winning on materiel or heart - not so much.
The US did not lose and did not surrender; the Demoratic Congress forfeited, and handed NV hundreds of thousands of SV lives. But "good intentions" make hands clean.
But NV winning on materiel or heart - not so much.
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Any more political "lessons" and the thread gets closed. This IS TNG, remember?
It would in the Mirror Universe.
Which movie is this? It would have to take significant liberties with what we know of the Vikings' activities in North America, since their only verified settlement outside of the two in Greenland is in a remote area of Newfoundland, in Canada. There was a Viking child born there, to Thorfinn Karlsefni and his wife, Gudrid. The child was a boy, and his name was Snorri. I've never read that either of the parents were killed by the natives of that area (the Beothuks, who are now extinct), and the Vikings didn't, as far as is known, keep that settlement going for 20 years or so.
The actor played one of the kids on Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman.
The eldest boy in the family Dr. Quinn adopted after their mother died. The one who played his sister in the show before she was replaced by another actress played Marissa on "Disaster" - the girl in the elevator with Picard.
Sisko had to consider the allegations that Rugal's adoptive parents were deliberately teaching him to hate his own race. That wasn't a factor in Jono's case - yes, Jono was being raised in the Talarian manner, but he wasn't being forced to hate himself because he was human.
Rugal, OTOH, was a Cardassian being raised by Bajorans. You saw how ashamed Rugal was of his own species - it was possible that his adoptive Bajoran family was doing that on purpose, in revemge for the Cardassian occupation. Sisko couldn't let that continue.
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Perhaps someone here with in-depth technical knowledge can answer this:
Let's assume that the Talarians begin firing on the Enterprise with their "X-Ray Lasers" and "Merculite Rockets." Would it have any effect on the Enterprise's shields? Could the Enterprise destroy all the surrounding Talarian vessels with one photon torpedo each?
Let's assume that the Talarians begin firing on the Enterprise with their "X-Ray Lasers" and "Merculite Rockets." Would it have any effect on the Enterprise's shields? Could the Enterprise destroy all the surrounding Talarian vessels with one photon torpedo each?
The needs of Juno should have come to the Forefront it was his decision.
however the Admiral can go to the aliens and request a meeting and try diplomatically to get her grandson back it kind of wasn't Picards place and he didn't want any of it.
he more likely got chewed out by the Admiral but hey it happens.
If I was Picard I woukd take Juno to the hollo deck and let him experience human culture and civilization and tell him this is humanity, spend as much time as you'd like.
Just like worf, he was an orphan raised by aliens, but he took both cultures and melded them.
however the Admiral can go to the aliens and request a meeting and try diplomatically to get her grandson back it kind of wasn't Picards place and he didn't want any of it.
he more likely got chewed out by the Admiral but hey it happens.
If I was Picard I woukd take Juno to the hollo deck and let him experience human culture and civilization and tell him this is humanity, spend as much time as you'd like.
Just like worf, he was an orphan raised by aliens, but he took both cultures and melded them.
I realize it is a bit unusual to go into hypotheticals on a forum dedicated to a science fiction TV show, but bear with me...
Let's assume that the writers decided to go a different direction, wherein the Talarians fire on the Enterprise. With that in mind:
Let's assume that the Talarians begin firing on the Enterprise with their "X-Ray Lasers" and "Merculite Rockets." Would it have any effect on the Enterprise's shields? Could the Enterprise destroy all the surrounding Talarian vessels with one photon torpedo each?
