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Star Trek Discovery Writing Staff

I take the showrunners of Discovery at their word that the show takes place within the prime universe. However, some of the most controversial decisions - such as the Klingon redesign (which, if nothing else, didn't work from a performance standpoint) and the Federation-Klingon war in general - were also the ones which stretched established canon the most. Was the Trekverse really enriched in any way by adding them? I don't think so.
This is were you and I disagree. I think that the Klingon War enriched the Trekverse. Similarly, I think the Earth-Romulan War would make more sense and enrich the Trekverse if it had been done instead of the Xindi.

Personally, I think DISCO was worth it for the Klingon designs alone.
If the writers would clarify "we're sticking to the story canon of Prime yet updating the look for a 2018 show" I wonder how that would help.
It wouldn't. Unfortunately.
Conversely, I think operating within the parameters established before makes more sense than increasing Trek tech based on contemporary knowledge, because I don't see how your conclusion follows from your premise here. After all, it's fiction — none of the tech is real, and it's not supposed to be an extrapolation from real-world 2018. Our present is not the past of Trek's setting. Its own established history is. If you want an in-story explanation, how about decades of global war in the mid-21st century (and heck, as far back as the 1990s!) throwing Earth's technological developments onto a different track from what's familiar to us IRL?...
Except when Trek tries to reinvent itself to suit contemporary tech and history. So, there have been instances of trying to have the cake and eat it to. Trek isn't always treated as being separated from our current world history, and I have heard it argued that it diminishes Trek's value of optimism for our world because it has its own history.

Yes, I would prefer its own history remain its own, but that's not what has been done consistently.
 
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And, ultimately, it's always been made for the audiences of the time, so what really matters is how it plays today to modern audiences, including non-fans, casual fans, hardcore fans, and everything in-between.

Talking to people on view-screens looked cool and futuristic back in the day, but it doesn't play as "sci-fi" today, so you go with holograms to achieve the same effect the view-screens once had. Same with the other tweaks to the art direction.

It's not about "canon." It's about what works as a theatrical effect--since a STAR TREK episode is, in a very real sense, a performance. It's theater as much as it's an intellectual exercise in world-building, which means you have to take the effect on the audience into account.
 
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They want to play in the Prime universe sandbox instead of making up a whole new one.

Well, obviously they don't. All one has to do is look at their "D-7", or their disregard of cloaking device as new tech in "Balance of Terror". Or the TNG rank pips. Or the movie style "Red Alert" icon. Or dozens of other things that simply don't match up with what we saw of the time period.

And their "D-7" pretty much has the same shape as a Centauri fighter from Babylon 5.
 
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Well, obviously they don't. All one has to do is look at their "D-7", or their disregard of cloaking device as new tech in "Balance of Terror". Or the TNG rank pips. Or the movie style "Red Alert" icon. Or dozens of other things that simply don't match up with what we saw of the time period.

Cloaking hasn't been new tech ever since ENTERPRISE, and all other points are merely aesthetic. As far as STORY canon, DISCO has stuck fairly close to it. Not 100%, but that applies to all Trek.
 
...and all other points are merely aesthetic.

Aesthetic is part of the universe and every bit as important as names and dates on a calendar. Fuck Wah Chang and Matt Jefferies and all the other people who brought the universe to life. Their work is apparently disposable in the name of "MODDDEEEEEERRRRRRRRNNN!!!"

And Spock was part of a war where cloaking devices were openly used, and yet calls them theoretical eight years later...
 
Aesthetic is part of the universe and every bit as important as names and dates on a calendar. Fuck Wah Chang and Matt Jefferies and all the other people who brought the universe to life. Their work is apparently disposable in the name of "MODDDEEEEEERRRRRRRRNNN!!!"

You're being dramatic.

And Spock was part of a war where cloaking devices were openly used, and yet calls them theoretical eight years later...

Like I said, ENTERPRISE already made that irrelevant a century earlier. The idea of cloaking being new tech in TOS is retconned, which is fine as it has no impact on the actual story of "Balance of Terror". It's still about our heroes trying to find an invisible ship. Whether it was new tech or not isn't the point.
 
You're being dramatic.

You're not really refuting the point...

Like I said, ENTERPRISE already made that irrelevant a century earlier. The idea of cloaking being new tech in TOS is retconned, which is fine as it has no impact on the actual story of "Balance of Terror". It's still about our heroes trying to find an invisible ship. Whether it was new tech or not isn't the point.

No, it just makes Spock look like an uneducated idiot now. He fought in a war with cloaking devices, but doesn't remember them eight years later.

They could've done a reboot and went hog wild and done anything they want. They went hog wild anyway and are simply lying to the fan base to keep from having the same blowback the Abrams films received. It seems the content is unimportant to fans as long as CBS tells them it is Prime.

I'm not against twisting things to a degree to make a story work. Chekov wasn't part of the Enterprise bridge crew yet, but was there during "Space Seed". Simple, makes sense as an explanation. But, when you start having to have later characters be idiots in order for another story to work, then I'm pretty much against it. Everyone's mileage may vary.
 

I can't imagine the Enterprise sat out the entire war. Even if it did, scuttlebutt runs rampant in the military (not to mention the press reporting on the war), he would've known cloaking devices were being used. The entirety of the Federation would have.

Even in the primitive 21st century, if North Korea sneezes, we know about it.
 
I can't imagine the Enterprise sat out the entire war. Even if it did, scuttlebutt runs rampant in the military (not to mention the press reporting on the war), he would've known cloaking devices were being used. The entirety of the Federation would have.

Even in the primitive 21st century, if North Korea sneezes, we know about it.
But, this is Star Trek.. Technology has not evolved like the 21st century, as well as the fact that we don't know if Spock's service was contiguous.
 
But, this is Star Trek.. Technology has not evolved like the 21st century, as well as the fact that we don't know if Spock's service was contiguous.

So Spock, Iunno, left Starfleet for the exact length of the war and never heard or saw anything on the subject for the next eight years? It is a poorly told story when you have to start twisting to that degree to make it fit with what came before.
 
Conversely, I think operating within the parameters established before makes more sense than increasing Trek tech based on contemporary knowledge, because I don't see how your conclusion follows from your premise here. After all, it's fiction — none of the tech is real, and it's not supposed to be an extrapolation from real-world 2018. Our present is not the past of Trek's setting. Its own established history is.

Except that Star Trek was created to be forward-looking, cutting-edge science fiction, not just an exercise in cozy nostalgia for a past vision of the future. We already have Star Wars for that. The details of the tech don't matter -- they're just means to the end of telling stories about ideas and values. And the ideas driving Star Trek are about looking forward to the future, building a better world for our descendants. It's not about the exact details of the technology, it's about the abstract ideals they embody, ideals of progress and scientific utopianism. No, it's not literally an extrapolation from the present, but it's symbolically a representation of where we could go in the future if we keep striving forward. So the vision driving it should be forward-looking, not nostalgic.


And, ultimately, it's always been made for the audiences of the time, so what really matters is how it plays today to modern audiences, including non-fans, casual fans, hardcore fans, and everything in-between.

Exactly. The thing that allows a franchise to endure is its ability to attract new fans. A respect for nostalgia has to be balanced with an embrace of modernity. People who really love a franchise should want it to evolve and attract new audiences, because that's the only way it can live on. Instead of getting upset when a franchise no longer appeals exclusively to our tastes and expectations, we should be grateful that it's adapting itself to draw in a new generation of fans, so that it can live on after us.


It's not about "canon." It's about what works as a theatrical effect--since a STAR TREK episode is, in a very real sense, a performance. It's theater as much as its an intellectual exercise in world-building, which means you have to take the effect on the audience into account.

Well said. Any depiction of the future is figurative and symbolic, because of course we can't know what the real future will look like. We can try to make it feel plausible, but the most plausible future in one decade is bound to seem dated and fanciful a couple of decades later. So the only way to maintain a consistent feel of being futuristic, or plausible, or whatever effect you're going for, is to update with the times.


Like I said, ENTERPRISE already made that irrelevant a century earlier. The idea of cloaking being new tech in TOS is retconned, which is fine as it has no impact on the actual story of "Balance of Terror". It's still about our heroes trying to find an invisible ship. Whether it was new tech or not isn't the point.

Also, cloaking has been "new" many times in Trek history. They could see the visual distortion of Klingon cloaks in ST III but that distortion was gone by ST VI. They found a way to detect cloaked ships by engine exhaust in ST VI but it was gone by TNG. The Mirror Klingons had cloaks in "Crossover" but not in "The Emperor's New Cloak." The logical interpretation is that cloaking is not one technology, but multiple distinct technologies, each of which is rendered obsolete once a means is discovered to penetrate it. So cloaking is a technology that goes through cycles of obsolescence and reinvention, an ongoing arms race between stealth and detection.
 
So Spock, Iunno, left Starfleet for the exact length of the war and never heard or saw anything on the subject for the next eight years? It is a poorly told story when you have to start twisting to that degree to make it fit with what came before.
Actually, I just think that particular line doesn't fit. Star Trek doesn't perfectly fit together and I don't demand it to be. ENT already had cloaking devices. TOS really remains the outlier on this particular map.

But, fan logic is fun to mess with at times, especially the recent discussions about Star Trek not supposed to be our future, so technology evolved differently, and the like.

It isn't a poorly told story-it's a details moment that people can either get stuck on or move past.
 
Actually, I just think that particular line doesn't fit. Star Trek doesn't perfectly fit together and I don't demand it to be. ENT already had cloaking devices. TOS really remains the outlier on this particular map.

Like I said, there are many contradictions in Trek's portrayal of cloaking tech. It's hardly limited to TOS.

Besides, it's just real-world common sense that any stealth technology is going to be matched by efforts to penetrate it. So it's simply unbelievable that a stealth technology could be invented once and go on being useful for centuries thereafter. It's just axiomatic that there would be an arms race between cloaking and detection, not just in Trek but in any universe where stealth technology exists. And that happens to provide a handy explanation for the numerous continuity glitches in Trek's portrayal of cloaking over the decades.
 
You're not really refuting the point...

I've already made my point, and you're not acknowledging it, whether you agree or disagree.

The point is made that DISCO is more or less canon storywise but visually upgraded. You're not willing to view the show on those terms so you accuse the makers for being liars because they're not sticking to your own view of what constitutes canon.



No, it just makes Spock look like an uneducated idiot now. He fought in a war with cloaking devices, but doesn't remember them eight years later.

They could've done a reboot and went hog wild and done anything they want. They went hog wild anyway and are simply lying to the fan base to keep from having the same blowback the Abrams films received. It seems the content is unimportant to fans as long as CBS tells them it is Prime.

I'm not against twisting things to a degree to make a story work. Chekov wasn't part of the Enterprise bridge crew yet, but was there during "Space Seed". Simple, makes sense as an explanation. But, when you start having to have later characters be idiots in order for another story to work, then I'm pretty much against it. Everyone's mileage may vary.

I think that's more your problem of taking canon way too literally. It's not anyone's fault that you have an inability to be able to enjoy a classic episode of TOS just because a show made 50 years later decided to be the upteenth Trek show fudging with cloaking innovations. When I watch "Balance of Terror" I enjoy it in isolation and view it in the context of when it came out, I don't try viewing it in the context of an 50 year evolving canon spanning two centuries of Trek stories.

It's all fiction. It's always been flexible. Was it out of line for the makers to change the Klingons in 1979 with no explanation? Were they disrespecting established canon THEN?
 
When I watch "Balance of Terror" I enjoy it in isolation and view it in the context of when it came out, I don't try viewing it in the context of an 50 year evolving canon spanning two centuries of Trek stories.

Good point. A lot of stuff established early on in a series gets quietly retconned away as the series evolves, so details in early episodes often have to be chalked up to "early installment weirdness." TOS had James R. Kirk, Vulcanians, lithium crystals, UESPA, Uhura in gold, no shuttlecraft, etc. Early TNG had Data using contractions and showing emotion, Picard's excessive Francophilia, Deanna's exotic accent, Riker being called "Bill," Geordi having a crush on Tasha for one episode, the casual contact with pre-warp cultures in "Justice," the prototype Klingon female makeup in "Hide and Q," etc. With first-season stuff, you have to make allowances for the creators' trial and error. Some things get thrown at the wall and just don't stick.
 
I think that's more your problem of taking canon way too literally. It's not anyone's fault that you have an inability to be able to enjoy a classic episode of TOS just because a show made 50 years later decided to be the upteenth Trek show fudging with cloaking innovations. When I watch "Balance of Terror" I enjoy it in isolation and view it in the context of when it came out, I don't try viewing it in the context of an 50 year evolving canon spanning two centuries of Trek stories.
Trying to view it in the full context is really tough anyway. I'm not sitting their watching it going, "Guy, you know, this really doesn't line up with what I know will come next." If I'm doing that, I'm not really engaged with the piece.
 
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