Spoilers What do you think of the social commentary in Discovery so far?

[eschaton]

People complain sometimes rightfully about past Trek being too didactic, but I feel like this series goes too far in the other direction. Messages may be briefly alluded to (like the analogy between the Charon's damage to the mycelial network and global warming) but they're dropped almost immediately and not really reflected on further. The series needs to commit to individual "message" episodes - something I think can be done within a serialized structure, and can also be done without being hokey.

The problem is, i don't think the current crop of writers know how to do it. From what I can see, there really isn't a writers room any longer to speak of for Discovery. Almost every single episode is written by a new person, most of whom are younger people whose experience is in non-genre television. This can be good for building characters, but not the "Trek" aspects of the show.

 

[lawman]

I'd really like to know the backstory on how this show has developed since it was first conceived, and in particular how the writing staff has changed as a result of the change of showrunners... and since then as well. There's a heckuva tell-all book to be written at some point. There have to be interesting explanations for some of what we've seen (and haven't seen) on screen, because "they planned it all that way!" just doesn't hold up...

 

[cultcross]

I'm all in favor of keeping things civil, in this thread or any other. But how exactly can people discuss sociopolitical commentary without discussing actual issues? That's kinda like saying "let's talk about recipes without discussing ingredients!"...

Fairly easily, as others have done. You could say for instance,
"Discovery points to themes of populism, futurism and the importance of good nutrition"

Throwing around sniping about the current political climate is not ok.

 

[XCV330]

I haven't noticed that much of a social tone really.
Dishonest malevolent people are bad. Species-ism is bad. Don't judge a Tilly by her initial appearance.
I'm good.

 

[lawman]

Throwing around sniping about the current political climate is not ok.

Well, I'm certainly not arguing in favor of sniping! It has been, as you noted, "a sensible discussion so far." Guess I'm just curious about where and how it's possible to draw a line between sociopolitical commentary in Trek, and sociopolitical commentary about the sociopolitical commentary in Trek.

The whole point of such things in fiction is to be thought-provoking, after all. One could hardly discuss (say) the allegories in the third season of nuBSG without also discussing (among other things) the real-world issues of what means are and are not moral (or effective) at resisting an occupation.

 

[seigezunt]

I liked the environmental message of the recent episode, and I like the quote about "painted rust" vis a vis bullies being, in reality, cowards. Quite topical.

This show has seemed pure Star Trek in the way that it tackles social issues, that is, vaguely progressive and slightly on the nose. I approve.

 

[Mark 2000]

Guess I'm just curious about where and how it's possible to draw a line between sociopolitical commentary in Trek, and sociopolitical commentary about the sociopolitical commentary in Trek.

I don't get it either. Not talking about specifics is hand tying. Political statements aren't vaguely about "populism" or "nutrition", they hold specific views and have specific messages. For instance, Lorca's line "alien races spill over our borders and flourish" in the previous episode is a very obvious reference to Trump and his very specific rhetoric. Is Lorca Trump? Is the Mirror Universe the US? Is Philippa Obama? What exactly was the point of that line in the bigger picture? What's the analogy? Just saying it's about "immigration" is not particularly useful or descriptive.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I see social commentary here and there, but I'm not really seeing a coherent social narrative. And really, it's more realistic that way - most of us, I think, on a daily basis, have these moments of concern about racial tension or the political landscape or sorting our waste into recyclable and non, but for the most part, except for a few special people (and I mean "special" here both as a compliment and as an insult, in varying degrees and depending on my opinion of their cause ), that isn't what LIFE is about, and life goes on.

 

[The Wormhole]

They're not really being very subtle. The Klingons have become religious extremists who hate white people, and Lorca is Space Trump wanting to make the Terran Empire Great Again.

 

[cultcross]

I haven't seen any really social commentary in Discovery. Most of the bigger issues they contend with are literally dropped as soon as they come up. Lorca is not the product of a failed system, he's an otherworldly monster. Mudd is not a civilian doing his best in a time of unwanted war, he's a Klingon collaborator. Tyler is not a torture and rape victim suffering from PTSD, he's a Klingon grafted into a human. Over and over again Discovery turns real issues into mere plot points in order to not fully address their implications. Maybe we'll know what it is by season end, but at this point there is no over arching theme to the show. It's just a soap opera.

Discovery seems to suffer from something we haven't seen much in Star Trek - a fear of carrying through. Trek in the past has either worn its allegories and themes on its sleeve, or they've just been entirely absent. When we are meant to see the theme, the characters nearly hold up fucking placards, or scream at you. We have outgrown Gods! shouted TOS in 'Who Mourns for Adonais'. It is much harder to look someone in the eye and pull the trigger! preached TNG in 'I, Borg'. War is hell and robs you of your humanity growled DS9, in more episodes than I can count. We will do what is right, not what is convenient to us! lectured VOY in 'Caretaker' and 'Equinox'.

DSC so far, has struggled to decide what it wants to say, and then when it tries to be brave, it undoes it later on. Perhaps it is getting used to serial storytelling. Hugh was gone by episode end. Apollo was never seen again. But then, DS9 could carry a tune. It remembered what it had said before, and said it again in a different way later, and didn't pull the rug out from under the preceding episodes. So I would really like it if DSC could enter season 2 with the guts to take its brave themes - PTSD, sexual violence, response of good people to war, and actually follow them through. Do something with them, or don't bring 'em up.

 

[Refuge]

I see the Federation as being representative of a United Nations like organisation with a USA like model being somewhat - Starfleet. In that parallel the United Nations and its effectiveness (or lack thereof) is countered with the more pro-active and at times independent Starfleet.

The Klingons are fundamentalists, most likely of the ISIS variety complete with the ability to turn on each other if the extreme faith is not followed.

The Vulcan scientist extremists are like any scientist extremists, they exist and are more like their religious fundamentalist equals than they would like to think. However that part of the commentary was bit of a fizzer. Mad scientists - self destruct.

The Mirror Universe is so bloody comic book. I know we're supposed to give Lorca an obvious parallel to a current leader but I'm not so sure how that works when he was wanting to overthrow someone equally extreme and flawed as Georgiou. If he is the isolationist what is she? A consumer of other life forms? And what of Michael? She starts wars and kills enemy leaders like some kind of anointed slayer.

That being the political commentary the message to me is simple. The end justifies the means. That sums up the journey thus far. 'Discovery's' message. We have been led down many paths some of which like Stamets and Culber's relationship and Lorca's character have been sacrificed for that end. Even Tyler wasn't to be what was in his set up. It's all rather disturbing that there isn't a sense that the Federation is anything other than one side of a war. As dismissive of the mirror universe as I feel, I'm pretty sure (duh), we are supposed to see the scenes with Michael and Tyler meeting with the rebels as a sign of races (including Klingons) coming together for a common goal, something one would've thought was not new to Federation principles in the first place.

 

[urbandefault]

I don't go out of my way to look for current socio-political parallels in any Trek show. The 24 hour soap opera coverage of real-life events is plenty for me.

Trek is just entertainment.

 

[Jayson1]

I have a question. What kind of social commentary do you think they will go with in season 2? I really hope they don't double down on Trump or maybe if they do they actually explore the issue instead of just rely on using a Trumpism and calling it a day.

I image sexual abuse will be a angle. Not sure how they will do that since Lorca is dead. Maybe whatever big name star they bring in to replace him will somehow deal with that story.

I would like to see them do something about North Korea and Russia. Not sure which race would make for a good North Korea but the Romulans are perfect for some Russia/Putin commentary.

These issues though are easy to go with because people except them. I would like them to also go after something more onscure that doesn't get the same kind of media attention. Something like how the modern prison system works and gerrymandering though i'm kind of lost on how you do that second story. Social media also would be a nice thing to explore but you do run into the problem that "Orville" did a great take on that issue so you might end up doing something that looks weak if you compare the two shows.

Jason

 

[lawman]

I see social commentary here and there, but I'm not really seeing a coherent social narrative. And really, it's more realistic that way - most of us, I think, on a daily basis, have these moments of concern about racial tension or the political landscape or sorting our waste into recyclable and non, but for the most part, except for a few special people... that isn't what LIFE is about, and life goes on.

Hmm, maybe I'm one of those people. I'm currently finishing up a PhD in political science and public policy, and that's on top of a law degree focused on civil liberties, with a few years of political oversight and advocacy work in the nonprofit sector sandwiched in-between the degrees. So this stuff is my meat and drink.

The thing is, I'm surrounded by lots of other people who are really into it as well, including plenty of friends and family who don't do it for a living. So being immersed in active discussions of politics is just part of life for me; I've never thought of it as remotely out of the ordinary. Indeed, I've always figured that people who don't pay attention to it for whatever reason, who don't grasp how politics and policy actually do impact our daily lives in myriad ways, are the outliers.

I guess YMMV...

DSC so far, has struggled to decide what it wants to say, and then when it tries to be brave, it undoes it later on. Perhaps it is getting used to serial storytelling. ...

Perhaps. But that seems like an odd sort of difficulty to be having.

The "prestige" TV show that DSC keeps being compared to again and again on these forums is Game of Thrones, after all, for good or ill. I don't think DSC is playing in remotely the same league as GOT... but it could be. Not only does it have a serialized story structure, but it's also got a big budget, a short season, an ensemble cast, and a setting ready-made for allegory. GOT regularly explores some incredibly sophisticated, layered sociopolitical issues (or, well, at least it did back when it was still adapting GRRM's books). I would love to see DSC operating at that level. Right now, it doesn't even seem to be trying.

I see the Federation as being representative of a United Nations like organisation with a USA like model being somewhat - Starfleet. In that parallel the United Nations and its effectiveness (or lack thereof) is countered with the more pro-active and at times independent Starfleet.

The Klingons are fundamentalists, most likely of the ISIS variety complete with the ability to turn on each other if the extreme faith is not followed.
...
As dismissive of the mirror universe as I feel, I'm pretty sure (duh), we are supposed to see the scenes with Michael and Tyler meeting with the rebels as a sign of races (including Klingons) coming together for a common goal, something one would've thought was not new to Federation principles in the first place.

Hmm. Interesting. The notion that Starfleet is not entirely susceptible to civilian control by the Federation, that it may act independently sometimes, is frankly kind of disturbing.

I agree that the DSC Klingons are being presented (mostly) as ISIS-type jihadis. The problem is, over the years the Klingons have also been presented as analogs for Soviet cold-war expansionism, for Japanese warrior culture, and for various other familiar cultural and political groups. One single alien race can't be all things to all people without seeming incoherent (at least, not without much better writing than they've been given so far).

I liked most of the meeting with the rebel forces a couple episodes ago, but I have to agree... it didn't really introduce anything particularly new or different to the equation. The notion that Burnham (or her writers) imagined she could glean some special insight into how to defeat the Klingons by picking MU-Voq's brain for thirty seconds is frankly ridiculous, and came across that way on screen.

...the political commentary the message to me is simple. The end justifies the means. That sums up the journey thus far. 'Discovery's' message.

Yikes. I hadn't thought of it that way... but I think you're onto something. A really strong case could be made that this is the most consistent theme of the show thus far. And that's really disturbing.

 

[Mark 2000]

And really, it's more realistic that way

I don’t think it’s wrong to expect more from fiction than reality. I’m not sure why anyone would want realism in their fantastical narrative fiction anyway.

 

[Lord Garth]

A lot what's going on today: Me Too, Police Brutality, Trump believing environmentalism to be a myth, the rise of the Alt-Right... these are things I wouldn't expect to see in a Federation or Starfleet of 2257. They could be on other planets but I think Discovery should be discovering, not so much rehashing what's on news headlines.

The Orville has dealt with gender identity in a single-sex society, how religion effects an entire world, and it's poked fun at social media and reality TV. It's the type of approach I like. It's looking at issues of the day but not feeling like it's "Ripped from the Headlines!!!!"

Right now The Orville seems more conductive to dealing with issues of the day because it's visiting planets that deal with these issues. Not so much with Discovery, which seems focused on the war with the Klingons or the Mirror Universe.

What Season 2 of Discovery will be about, I don't know, but it'll most likely be arc-based too and less conductive to covering as much ground in terms of issues of the day as The Orville is able to.

As far as comparing Klingons to Trump or the Alt-Right: I'm not seeing it. T'Kuvma seems nothing like Trump. T'Kuvma seemed to believe in something bigger than himself. And his seeking unite the Klingon Empire is an act of bringing people together, even if it's against the Federation. Trump claims to want to unite America but his divisive rhetoric ensures that won't happen. I'm not interested in uniting with someone -- anyone -- who wants to alienate me. T'Kuvma seemed to be inclusive as long as you're Klingon.

 

[Jayson1]

A lot what's going on today: Me Too, Police Brutality, Trump believing environmentalism to be a myth, the rise of the Alt-Right... these are things I wouldn't expect to see in a Federation or Starfleet of 2257. They could be on other planets but I think Discovery should be discovering, not so much rehashing what's on news headlines.

The Orville has dealt with gender identity in a single-sex society, how religion effects an entire world, and it's poked fun at social media and reality TV. It's the type of approach I like. It's looking at issues of the day but not feeling like it's "Ripped from the Headlines!!!!"

Right now The Orville seems more conductive to dealing with issues of the day because it's visiting planets that deal with these issues. Not so much with Discovery, which seems focused on the war with the Klingons or the Mirror Universe.

What Season 2 of Discovery will be about, I don't know, but it'll most likely be arc-based too and less conductive to covering as much ground in terms of issues of the day as The Orville is able to.

As far as comparing Klingons to Trump or the Alt-Right: I'm not seeing it. T'Kuvma seems nothing like Trump. T'Kuvma seemed to believe in something bigger than himself. And his seeking unite the Klingon Empire is an act of bringing people together, even if it's against the Federation. Trump claims to want to unite America but his divisive rhetoric ensures that won't happen. I'm not interested in uniting with someone -- anyone -- who wants to alienate me. T'Kuvma seemed to be inclusive as long as you're Klingon.

Don't Alt Right people sort of believe in something bigger than themselves? I mean they want to make "America Great Again" which implies they see something wrong with how it is and they want to fix it. Granted I think there is a realigious connection for some as well which is why you see so many hard core Christians support Trump. I think some people WANT the world to end so that Jesus can return and all that jazz. They actually could have played up that angle with the Klingons who want Kahless to return though I am always kind of fuzzy on what they want from their Gods. We know they killed them, at leat according to Worf for being to much of nuisance yet they believe in a Afterlife and even a Hell. I always though their worship of Kahless was less spirtual and more like having hero worship for someone like people today might have for Abe Lincoln or Martin Luther King. You want them back and you want to follow them but you don't want to treat them as sacred to a point where you are blinded by everything that might do. You kind of like that they are basically the same as you as in being a human. Granted Klingons love to exagerate but I think they even know they are telling tale tales in those "I fought a million bad guys on a Volcano" type of stories.

Jason

 

[Lord Garth]

While that's a valid interpretation, I prefer not to equate the Klingons with the Alt-Right for my own personal reasons.

 

[Jayson1]

I'm not fond if the idea either. Especially since the Klingons were a race that built it's entire society around honor. Granted it was a caste system were many of those who were royal blood ended up not living up to those ideas it is a nice idea to base a society on plus I don't much like how all the development that started on TNG and expanded on DS9 was basically erased to create one-note baddies. I mean they were kind of like that on TOS but Kor was such a fun character and they were used in more fun ways so it didn't seem like that much of a bad idea at the time.

Jason

 

[comradepitrovsky]

The commentary is not only good, but needed.