Spoilers Lorca Theory

[TheMadCloner]

IMO the writers have fairly cleverly constructed Lorca to be a character which the viewers want to like (and wanted to see succeed) - despite his deep flaws which go right down to the core of what makes us human - and then takes his character in a direction which makes the viewer ask themselves some fundamental questions about morality and ambition.

I know some might think that this might be giving the writers too much credit; but from what I've seen I don't that's out of the question with what these writers are capable of.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

This is exactly the sort of bullshit I don't want to see in Star Trek. The trope is toxic in general and absolutely has no place in Star Trek (and yes, they already kinda went there with Sisko and Archer and I detested that too.) I'm still bummed by the mirror reveal though. I would have preferred Lorca to be a traumatised man, slowly falling apart, trying to cover his weakness with machismo, until he finally couldn't any more.

What makes you so sure Lorca won't end up going down that road anyway? As far as I can tell, that's the entire mirror universe in a nutshell.

 

[DigificWriter]

At this point, we don't know anything about Lorca's motivations in attempting to assassinate Emperor Georgiou or in taking the USS Discovery to the MIrror Universe, at least as far as I know, so I don't think we can or should be making assumptions about where he'll end up narratively and whether or not revealing that he's from the MU has "ruined" his character.

 

[Longinus]

What makes you so sure Lorca won't end up going down that road anyway? As far as I can tell, that's the entire mirror universe in a nutshell.

Sure. The mirror universe is stupid though so it is hard to care. Besides, with mirror Lorca I'd actually prefer ruthless hero angle. His behaviour would make him a villain in the normal universe but he can still be a hero in the mirror one. I have different standards for Starfleet captains and resistance fighters trying to overthrow a space cannibal nazi empire.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Sure. The mirror universe is stupid though so it is hard to care. Besides, with mirror Lorca I'd actually prefer ruthless hero angle. His behaviour would make him a villain in the normal universe but he can still be a hero in the mirror one. I have different standards for Starfleet captains and resistance fighters trying to overthrow a space cannibal nazi empire.

That's just it, nothing he did in the Prime Universe (that we know of) counts as particularly villainous. Underhanded and duplicitous, yes, but he seemed to be able to conduct himself in a manner more or less in line with a (somewhat dysfunctional) Starfleet captain in spite of his barbarian nature. Lieutenant Landry, not so much, but she sort of brought that on herself.

It mainly depends on his actual agenda in this case. Was he trying to assassinate the emperor because she was evil and needed to do, or was he doing it because he was trying to grab power for himself? Or did he have something else in mind entirely? In either case, from what we've seen of Lorca I'm not convinced he actually fits in EITHER universe. He's a softy in the mirrorverse and a complete hardass in the primeverse, but evidently walks the line well enough to be relatively successful in either one.

 

[Longinus]

That's just it, nothing he did in the Prime Universe (that we know of) counts as particularly villainous.

I disagree. By my standards for Starfleet captains leaving Mudd behind was disqualifying. And of course killing his crew sounds super bad, but on that we don't have details. But I think this was already discussed in length in the tread for that episode.

It mainly depends on his actual agenda in this case. Was he trying to assassinate the emperor because she was evil and needed to do, or was he doing it because he was trying to grab power for himself?

Indeed. I really hope it is the former. Making Lorca one dimensional power hungry villain would be totally wasting the character.

 

[cultcross]

By my standards for Starfleet captains leaving Mudd behind was disqualifying.

Mudd by that point had been exposed as a collaborator, it would have been insanely dangerous to take him along on their covert escape

 

[Longinus]

Mudd by that point had been exposed as a collaborator, it would have been insanely dangerous to take him along on their covert escape

Okay, apparently we're redoing this! A civilian collaborating under threat of torture is something that is to be expected. Most people would. And regardless how much an asshole Mudd may have been, as a Starfleet officer Lorca had a duty to save him. That is my asessenment and I stand by it. YMMV. Of course now we know he's not a Starfleet officer so the point is moot.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Lorca may have had a moral obligation to take Mudd along, but I don't see any legal way to force it. If Lorca didn't want to save Mudd, AFAIK he couldn't be forced to.

 

[Feron]

Okay, apparently we're redoing this! A civilian collaborating under threat of torture is something that is to be expected. Most people would. And regardless how much an asshole Mudd may have been, as a Starfleet officer Lorca had a duty to save him. That is my asessenment and I stand by it. YMMV. Of course now we know he's not a Starfleet officer so the point is moot.

A Starfleet officer has no obligation to knowingly endanger a longshot escape attempt where they are already outnumbered and outgunned by taking along a known collaborator who at any moment might choose to give them away to the Klingons.

Even a character from the superhero genre might repeat Batman's words from another movie: "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either."

 

[Longinus]

A Starfleet officer has no obligation to knowingly endanger a longshot escape attempt where they are already outnumbered and outgunned by taking along a known collaborator who at any moment might choose to give them away to the Klingons.

Even a character from the superhero genre might repeat Batman's words from another movie: "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either."

Then we just have to agree to disagree. I cannot see a character who acts the way as Lorca did as a hero, and I don't want such a person to be main character captain in a Star Trek show.

 

[Feron]

Lorca may have had a moral obligation to take Mudd along, but I don't see any legal way to force it. If Lorca didn't want to save Mudd, AFAIK he couldn't be forced to.

I disagree that there is even a moral obligation to take Mudd along. If Mudd betrays them, then both Tyler and Lorca would possibly die as a result (and of course at that point Lorca is assuming that Tyler is a good guy.)

In war, real soldiers often have to make difficult decisions. If a naval ship has had a hole blown in it and is sinking, people have a moral obligation to seal the bulkheads and try to save as many lives as they can, even if they know that they are dooming those on the other side of the bulkheads to an almost certain death.

It isn't moral to adopt the position of "If I cannot save everyone, then I will save none."

 

[cultcross]

Taking Mudd along was a very real risk to his escape plan; if Mudd was a collaborator, which he was, he could have alerted the Klingons at any point out of fear, malice, or stupidity.

As for his moral imperative, he was no worse than Kirk with Martia after learning she was a collaborator. Didn't hesitate to save his own skin. "Not me you idiot, him!"

 

[UssGlenn]

In either case, from what we've seen of Lorca I'm not convinced he actually fits in EITHER universe. He's a softy in the mirrorverse and a complete hardass in the primeverse, but evidently walks the line well enough to be relatively successful in either one.

He's like some of the humans from the DS9 era mirror universe, like Smiley O'Brien.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Why does Lorca being from the Mirror Universe automatically make him an unlikable character?

It doesn't. He's still one of my favorite captains

 

[Refuge]

Taking Mudd along was a very real risk to his escape plan; if Mudd was a collaborator, which he was, he could have alerted the Klingons at any point out of fear, malice, or stupidity.

Yeah taking Tyler/Voq along was the better choice

 

[cultcross]

A Starfleet officer who at that time had given no indication of duplicity? Yes, considerably.