I think he was the only one with charisma. Maybe Spiner, too. Riker was supposed to be a co-lead, IIRC. That never panned out because of Stewart's charisma and talent.
Jason Isaacs VS Sonequa. Who Should Have Been The Series Lead? (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Kane_Steel
- Start date
Just for fun, since we are talking about the gravitas, presence and charisma required to play a Star Trek lead.
Sonequa in a Commanding role;
Isaacs in a Commanding role;
Are you sure you want Sonequa as the 'Captain' of this series?
Sonequa in a Commanding role;
Isaacs in a Commanding role;
Are you sure you want Sonequa as the 'Captain' of this series?
Yes.
I’m not as down on SMG as the majority seems to be. I think she’s giving us exactly what is being asked of her tbh. I think her character is supposed to be pretty detached at this point but eventually that is going to need to change if she is going to carry the series.
As for Lorca, IMO he was one of the best characters I’ve ever seen in the Trek universe. I’m not as in tune with who the producers are and what their views are as many others here are, but I’ve seen many say that Lorca is being written as an unscrupulous, deceptive person because he’s a white male and other more “diverse” characters are meant to be the characters worth looking up to. Well I don’t know if all of that is true, (if it is then that’s a pretty messed up way of thinking); but if it’s true then they need to do that more often because the result has been nothing short of brilliant with what they’ve built in Lorca.
As for Lorca, IMO he was one of the best characters I’ve ever seen in the Trek universe. I’m not as in tune with who the producers are and what their views are as many others here are, but I’ve seen many say that Lorca is being written as an unscrupulous, deceptive person because he’s a white male and other more “diverse” characters are meant to be the characters worth looking up to. Well I don’t know if all of that is true, (if it is then that’s a pretty messed up way of thinking); but if it’s true then they need to do that more often because the result has been nothing short of brilliant with what they’ve built in Lorca.
I'm not partial to the Michael Burnham character and I'm not sure yet if it's just the writing, Sonequa M Green's performance or a combination of the two...perhaps the latter. Burnham is simply not a particularly interesting character despite the shoehorning in of a background of being raised by Sarek and all the rest of it to intentionally make her interesting.
Lorca is by far the more interesting character though, as I have stated elsewhere, the recent revelation/theory confirmation does make me worry that he will devolve into caricature...
Lorca is by far the more interesting character though, as I have stated elsewhere, the recent revelation/theory confirmation does make me worry that he will devolve into caricature...
This is incredibly frustrating. Lorca is the most interesting regular, but I'd far and above rather have Phillipa Georgiou as the permanent commanding officer. To be honest, I would be much happier if we had gotten a Star Trek: Shenzhou. She was straight-up Starfleet, but also one could also tell she was just as capable of going off the beaten path as any of the others, and maybe she wouldn't be as much all over the place as Janeway?
Unless, of course, someone wants to adapt New Frontier into a live-action series? Issacs as Mackinzie Calhoun would be cool. He's a bit old for the part, but na ja.
Unless, of course, someone wants to adapt New Frontier into a live-action series? Issacs as Mackinzie Calhoun would be cool. He's a bit old for the part, but na ja.
Isaacs is awesome, and IMHO the better actor. But he couldn't have been the lead if they were telling the story they want to tell (whatever I opinion of their latest twist may be)
I think you are being overly critical. I don't think SMG's performance has been bad at all.
I didn't like Michael all that much in the first episodes, when SMG was directed to play her as an emotionless dick, trying to out-Vulcan the Vulcans. I think that is what was intended but I also think it made her more unlikeable than the writers planned. She has since grown on me, again as intended. Nonetheless, she is not meant to be cuddly, she is a coldly competent person who is arrogant about it (legacy of her brains and upbringing), although that is counterbalanced by a reckless streak a mile wide (which proves how human she actually is). One of the show's big story arcs is Michael growing into her humanity.
I think SMG has been best in discrete situations when what she is supposed to do is clear. She is great in moments when Michael is faced with a challenge and grabs it by the balls, like escaping the tardigrade, challenging Kol or stepping into the role of Mirror Burnham. She was also good in the scenes with Tyler, when she is facing down unfamiliar emotions and struggling to deal with them. She is less good at figuring out where the character is supposed to be mentally/emotionally in scenes that are more ambiguous or not explicitly about her. (If she wants a master class in how to do that, she can watch Jason Isaacs. The young actors should be watching every move he makes if they aren't stupid.)
Overall, I'd give her a B, and she's getting better as she and the writers figure out where they are going.
Sonequa has both the advantage and disadvantage of playing against a uniformly good cast, every one of whom is capable of outacting her if she doesn't bring her A game. Isaacs, in particular, has decades more experience and is as good an actor as anyone, the first we've had in Star Trek who is fully in Patrick Stewart's league.
Not only is he really THAT good, the part of Lorca plays to all his strengths. It could have been written explicitly for him (and probably was customized to a significant extent after he was cast). It's kinda like hiring Eric Clapton to play the blues, it's no surprise when it goes really fucking well.
And Lorca is SUPPOSED to be commanding and charismatic, that is part of who he is, one of his biggest weapons. He is a seducer, who excels in figuring out what motivates people and getting them to think what he wants is their idea. Isaacs has been working that every minute of every scene. So not only is he the most complex, unpredictable character, he is also being intentionally written and acted to be impressive. It is no accident that I (and apparently many of you) love this fucked up guy.
My bottom line argument is that it is unfair to compare the two characters, and actors, for all of those reasons. I think they complement each other, and I think SMG has done well to not be completely blown off the screen by Isaacs, which she hasn't been.
I fervently hope the writers realize how important Lorca is to this show, and that losing him would blow a big black hole into its center. I think they probably do, though I don't know what their exit strategy is. Have him redeem himself? Have Prime Lorca show up? Bear in mind, we do not yet know that he is actually evil. He may be a freedom fighter. Who fucking knows, this story could go anywhere, which is one of the reasons I love it, but I hope it goes somewhere Jason Isaacs is still aboard because he is the best thing about a show I like a lot.
I didn't like Michael all that much in the first episodes, when SMG was directed to play her as an emotionless dick, trying to out-Vulcan the Vulcans. I think that is what was intended but I also think it made her more unlikeable than the writers planned. She has since grown on me, again as intended. Nonetheless, she is not meant to be cuddly, she is a coldly competent person who is arrogant about it (legacy of her brains and upbringing), although that is counterbalanced by a reckless streak a mile wide (which proves how human she actually is). One of the show's big story arcs is Michael growing into her humanity.
I think SMG has been best in discrete situations when what she is supposed to do is clear. She is great in moments when Michael is faced with a challenge and grabs it by the balls, like escaping the tardigrade, challenging Kol or stepping into the role of Mirror Burnham. She was also good in the scenes with Tyler, when she is facing down unfamiliar emotions and struggling to deal with them. She is less good at figuring out where the character is supposed to be mentally/emotionally in scenes that are more ambiguous or not explicitly about her. (If she wants a master class in how to do that, she can watch Jason Isaacs. The young actors should be watching every move he makes if they aren't stupid.)
Overall, I'd give her a B, and she's getting better as she and the writers figure out where they are going.
Sonequa has both the advantage and disadvantage of playing against a uniformly good cast, every one of whom is capable of outacting her if she doesn't bring her A game. Isaacs, in particular, has decades more experience and is as good an actor as anyone, the first we've had in Star Trek who is fully in Patrick Stewart's league.
Not only is he really THAT good, the part of Lorca plays to all his strengths. It could have been written explicitly for him (and probably was customized to a significant extent after he was cast). It's kinda like hiring Eric Clapton to play the blues, it's no surprise when it goes really fucking well.
And Lorca is SUPPOSED to be commanding and charismatic, that is part of who he is, one of his biggest weapons. He is a seducer, who excels in figuring out what motivates people and getting them to think what he wants is their idea. Isaacs has been working that every minute of every scene. So not only is he the most complex, unpredictable character, he is also being intentionally written and acted to be impressive. It is no accident that I (and apparently many of you) love this fucked up guy.
My bottom line argument is that it is unfair to compare the two characters, and actors, for all of those reasons. I think they complement each other, and I think SMG has done well to not be completely blown off the screen by Isaacs, which she hasn't been.
I fervently hope the writers realize how important Lorca is to this show, and that losing him would blow a big black hole into its center. I think they probably do, though I don't know what their exit strategy is. Have him redeem himself? Have Prime Lorca show up? Bear in mind, we do not yet know that he is actually evil. He may be a freedom fighter. Who fucking knows, this story could go anywhere, which is one of the reasons I love it, but I hope it goes somewhere Jason Isaacs is still aboard because he is the best thing about a show I like a lot.
SMG's role is not an easy one. She's a human raised as a Vulcan, whose entire life has pretty much been limited to education on one planet and then 7 years on one spaceship.
How do you play that?
Her best moment came episode before last, that shot of her in the Shenzhou captain's chair with her head slumped to the side. It was perfect.
How do you play that?
Her best moment came episode before last, that shot of her in the Shenzhou captain's chair with her head slumped to the side. It was perfect.
luckily, he tastes good
Aaack. That scene is still making my skin crawl two days later. For me, it was the most disturbing thing Discovery has done, and there's no shortage of candidates for that honor.
SMG else they'd have to rewrite pretty large swaths of the show and it wouldn't be the same, you don't actually know what you're asking because you don't know what it would be like because it would be greatly rewritten.
Personally, I think Lorca is the predictable more cookie cut character. There hasn't been any real mystery to the guy, mich like Ash.
I still don't see the dislike for SMG and the burnham character. I think burnham is both written and acted very well, and is pretty unique, truly top notch and without her it woulf be so different a show, I fear it would be like every other network show. And she is seriously not at all "wooden"
In short, having the hyper rational torn between idealism vs realism is far more interesting.
Personally, I think Lorca is the predictable more cookie cut character. There hasn't been any real mystery to the guy, mich like Ash.
I still don't see the dislike for SMG and the burnham character. I think burnham is both written and acted very well, and is pretty unique, truly top notch and without her it woulf be so different a show, I fear it would be like every other network show. And she is seriously not at all "wooden"
In short, having the hyper rational torn between idealism vs realism is far more interesting.
I think Lorca is really important to this story, but if the show ended and the assumed bad guy lorca, dies, they will simply write a second season with a new villain and set if circumstances that I believe will be interesting to watch.
What it looks like right now is that Lorca took a girl, groomed her to help overthrow the emperor and I think it was insinuated that there was some creepy relationship involved.
If that's true, that kind of character doesn't stick around and certainly can't be a part of the crew in any regular way.
Saru is not interesting - Doug Jones just does a good job with the performance.
I didn't like a lot what Act 1 did with his character - making him a coward by design, and making him initially petty and jealous towards Burnham - but it was character development. Since Act 2 started, every single line he has given has been some generic pablum that any Starfleet XO could give.
As to the OP, as I said elsewhere, if you're paying attention, SMG is no longer truly the lead of the show. It has become an ensemble cast already.
In Act 1 she was the protagonist in almost every episode, virtually all dialogue was between her and the other characters, and her actions were generally the pivotal ones to saving the day.
In Act 2 to date she's no longer the focus of the series. She's one of the focus points, but all of the main characters are being given roughly equal footing. She gets to "lead" the A plot, but the B/C plots involve other members of the crew doing things integral to the mission completely independently of her.
In Act 1 she was the protagonist in almost every episode, virtually all dialogue was between her and the other characters, and her actions were generally the pivotal ones to saving the day.
In Act 2 to date she's no longer the focus of the series. She's one of the focus points, but all of the main characters are being given roughly equal footing. She gets to "lead" the A plot, but the B/C plots involve other members of the crew doing things integral to the mission completely independently of her.
You miss the point. If he was just a "villain" of course they could write another one. He's one of the two primary characters, the most interesting character overall, and also the best actor, who makes everyone around him better. Losing all of that is a serious problem.
We don't know if Lorca is a megalomaniac or a freedom fighter. We don't know the truth about the relationship between Lorca and Mirror Burnham, we only know what the Emperor told Prime Burnham. She may be mistaken or lying. It's a lot easier to think your right hand man seduced your adopted daughter and betrayed you because he is evil than to think they both turned against you because you are an evil creature at the head of an evil regime. There are a number of ways this could play out, and "Lorca is a massively evil pedophile who is never heard from again" is only one of them. He might yet turn out to be far more complicated than that. It's also possible for Prime Lorca to show up. You may be right, but I hope not.
Agree that Isaacs is the series lead now. I had forgotten the earlier episodes where it was more Burnham-focused.
I had completely forgotten her convict-arc thing.
I like Saru as a captain lately.
Can't prime Lorca be alive somewhere in PU? So Isaacs could return in season 2?
I had completely forgotten her convict-arc thing.
I like Saru as a captain lately.
Can't prime Lorca be alive somewhere in PU? So Isaacs could return in season 2?
idk, the moment they announced Isaacs, the moment it was clear to me his character would only be there for one season. Same with Yeoh.
but I don't doubt they will find actors in the same talent and price range for next season
but I don't doubt they will find actors in the same talent and price range for next season
Good that it is becoming an ensemble piece. I expected that from the beginning, so this debate feels rather odd to me. Isaacs clearly demonstrates that intensity that I think has come to be expected of a Starfleet Captain.
I find Burnham more engaging because her story has taken some a tragic turn. She, like the oracle in the Iliad, predicts Klingon aggression and cannot save her captain. It's a bit mythic in her development and I would rather watch that.