Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

[Donker]

I'm convinced the original plan was that Lorca was Section 31. Aside from the couple of "3" and "1" references in the first handful of episodes (that have also been dropped) there were the black badges in episode 3 that haven't been seen since.

Yep absolutely agree. Section 31 stuff (which was hinted at) was dropped as well.
Mirror Universe arc seems like them retooling what they had to work with after the Fuller ideas were not working out after the first few episodes. (I would almost make a bet the Klingon makeup led to severe cutting back of Klingon War as well)

 

[Feron]

You're reading a lot more into the show than is actually there - at least yet.

Here's an exercise for you. For each of the six main cast members of the Discovery, tell me five things about them off the top of your head which don't relate to the plot.

You might be able to do it for one or two of them, but I'm guessing not all. The reason is very little has been done to establish the characters exist yet as anything separate from devices to move along the plot.

To be fair though, that is a problem with many of the Trek characters from past series.

In After Trek for this week, Frakes was asked how Mirror Riker would be different from PU Riker. He joked that "he would sit differently." I laughed, but it kind of emphasized for me that the TNG characters were all group-think utopians with just minor surface differences. Riker has his sit down move, plays trombone, and likes having sex with lots of other characters.

Picard likes making sanctimonious speeches and drinking tea, and so on.

 

[MvRojo]

They also dropped Stamets being a jerkass.

That wasn't dropped. It almost seemed like he was merging with the MU version who was much nicer seeming. He shifted back to his normal self when he came out of the chamber confused and called Tilly captain and then snapped at her. Most of his interactions recently have been with Culber, which are why he's a little softer seeming.

Plus maybe since his big project is kinda working he is less frustrated/angry.

 

[XCV330]

Yep absolutely agree. Section 31 stuff (which was hinted at) was dropped as well.
Mirror Universe arc seems like them retooling what they had to work with after the Fuller ideas were not working out after the first few episodes. (I would almost make a bet the Klingon makeup led to severe cutting back of Klingon War as well)

I would love to know what happened in the making of this season. I suspect it wasn't pretty. It really does look like some blind alleys were visited and abandoned. Hopefully Season 2 will have some coherance that Season 1 didn't. I still think it's the strongest first season any trek show has ever had.

 

[Pure Antiproton]

What a ride this show has become. I’m blown away with the quality brought to the franchise. Not totally sold on how dark it is, but the climb has been worth the view.

 

[eschaton]

To be fair though, that is a problem with many of the Trek characters from past series.

In After Trek for this week, Frakes was asked how Mirror Riker would be different from PU Riker. He joked that "he would sit differently." I laughed, but it kind of emphasized for me that the TNG characters were all group-think utopians with just minor surface differences. Riker has his sit down move, plays trombone, and likes having sex with lots of other characters.

Picard likes making sanctimonious speeches and drinking tea, and so on.

Even in TOS, before serialization was a glimmer in Trek's eye, the writers put in "character moment" scenes into most episodes. Basically these were seemingly throwaway interactions between two characters which had nothing to do with the plot of the week, but had everything to do with establishing the characters as plausible, well-rounded human beings (well, sapients, being inclusive of Spock). This tradition continued in TNG. DS9 perfected it (think about the "lunch dates" that Garak and Bashir had). Even VOY and ENT had this, although it was often irritating (the perpetual friction between Neelix and Tuvok for example).

That's a lot of what I'm missing in Discovery. And even though the show as a whole has been getting better, it's been getting worse in this respect. Early on Stamets and Tilly were given some legit scenes which were plot-independent and helped establish their characters, but this has completely fallen to the wayside.

 

[cbl1]

It has been a very good 1st season.

Ranking wise I would probably place it as the second best 1st season.

Star Trek TOS I would have to give the best because in its case you are talking fairly groundbreaking TV trying to create the mythos as far as what is to come. Have to give it credit there (even if I'm not a die hard TOS fan).

I actually would have to give my favorite series of all ST:TNG the award for worst first season. I mean its pretty bad - starting with Encounter at Farpoint. I'm glad they made it past that 1st season (and then the Dr. Pulaski season).

The others were about the same in first year - had higher production value to their initial season then TOS or ST:TNG = trying to setup what would come after (some followed through with those themes their subsequent years better then others)

 

[eschaton]

The others were about the same in first year - had higher production value to their initial season then TOS or ST:TNG = trying to setup what would come after (some followed through with those themes their subsequent years better then others)

I think you need to put season 1 of DS9 above season 1 of VOY or ENT. I mean, a lot of it was boring of course, but it legitimately pumped out one of the best Trek episodes of all time by the end (Duet) which is something that even Discovery hasn't managed to do yet.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...Best picture I can find of the Prime DSC's for comparison.

Many Bothans died from Vulcan Death Grips to bring us this image.

 

[cbl1]

Star Trek Voyager should have been a lot more like Discovery. They had a lot of room for flexibility being outside the Federation. However, Voyager kept a very "in-federation" feel to it throughout its run. It could have had longer dark arcs other than the 1-2 every so often (that would end up reset).

 

[137th Gebirg]

Have they shown any other Mirror Universe character to have light aversion when they crossed over?

Nope this is a new one.

 

[eschaton]

Nope this is a new one.

Maybe the real reason that Mirror Kirk & Co freaked out upon crossing over is they didn't have their eyedrops.

As for the DS9 mirror shows - that station was so poorly lit to begin with that I'm not surprised they didn't have any issues.

 

[cbl1]

think you need to put season 1 of DS9 above season 1 of VOY or ENT. I mean, a lot of it was boring of course, but it legitimately pumped out one of the best Trek episodes of all time by the end (Duet) which is something that even Discovery hasn't managed to do yet.

I do agree with that - DS9 strayed from some of its original themes (which actually was good) but kinda came back to them late just to tie up the loose ends IMO.

But Enterprise got a little bland 1st season - I think the whole temporal cold war was pretty bad idea. And Voyager just couldn't figure out what it was trying to be.

 

[matthunter]

Nope this is a new one.

We never saw MU Kirk's party. And DS9's MU humans (Georgiou seems to think this is only a difference in MU humans) always crossed to DS9, which has dimmer lighting than a Federation starbase.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Maybe the real reason that Mirror Kirk & Co freaked out upon crossing over is they didn't have their eyedrops.

As for the DS9 mirror shows - that station was so poorly lit to begin with that I'm not surprised they didn't have any issues.

You beat me to it. DS9 was poorly lit anyway, so there is no reason to think Lorca's eye issues are inconsistent with DS9.

And in TOS: Mirror Mirror, we only got a few seconds of screen time at a time of the MU Kirk and the MU others; it wasn't enough for us be able to say "they did not seem to be affected by the light, thus Lorca's light sensitivity is inconsistent".

 

[dahj]

As for TOS: Mirror Mirror, we only got a few seconds of screen time at a time of the MU Kirk and the MU others;

The entire episode is set on an well lit Mirror Enterprise full of MU others though...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You're reading a lot more into the show than is actually there

Could be I've been paying closer attention? That's possible, right?

Here's an exercise for you. For each of the six main cast members of the Discovery, tell me five things about them off the top of your head which don't relate to the plot. You might be able to do it for one or two of them, but I'm guessing not all.

You have guessed incorrectly.

I could, of course, sit here and waste 45 minutes writing an essay about the six major characters on Star Trek Discovery, but I am 99% sure you would just dismiss all of those observations as "plot-driven, doesn't count" no matter what I actually wrote.

The reason is very little has been done to establish the characters exist yet as anything separate from devices to move along the plot.

That's because it's a character-driven plot. Character developments are actual plot points in this story that have lasting consequences for future episodes. This is why Burnham is so horrified with herself for killing Cooper: because she's still carrying the guilt for having "killed him" at the Binary Stars by failing to prevent the war. That's the whole reason why Cooper is even THERE, and it's the whole reason why he tries to kill her in the turbolift. It's not "character development related to plot," the story was written the way it was to drive a development in Burnham's character.

Which is to say, the Mirror Universe is REALLY fucking with her head. That is, in fact, the entire grounding of these stories: the Mirror Universe is a horrible place, not because of what's actually happening here, but because of what it tells Burnham and Lorca (and hell, even Voq!) about themselves and who they really are inside. What do you think Voq/Tyler's whole "Remain Klingon or die!" tantrum was all about? He literally discovered who he truly is by being confronted with the living embodiment of who he ISN'T.


Of course, Discovery doesn't have compelling, flawed characters who grapple with both internal and external conflicts in surprising and sometimes self-defeating ways, that clearly suffer the (sometimes long-lasting) consequences of their actions and mistakes, so I'm probably just imagining all of it.

 

[137th Gebirg]

We never saw MU Kirk's party. And DS9's MU humans (Georgiou seems to think this is only a difference in MU humans) always crossed to DS9, which has dimmer lighting than a Federation starbase.

Point taken re. DS9 and Terok Nor's dim lighting, but we did see MU Kirk's people in the very brightly-lit brig on a very brightly-lit RU USS Enterprise. They were complaining about everything except the lighting levels: uniforms, Spock's beard and "ambition", personal guards, etc. Kirk never once said, "and why is it so damn bright in here?!?" Not to mention the fact that the ISS Enterprise seemed to have the exact same brightness levels as the USS Enterprise. And, in Enterprise, never once did any Imperials complain about the Defiant's interior lighting being too bright and demanding the computer lower the levels.

It's an interesting notion that the lighting differs between universes, but precedent should have been set years ago. I really like Disco, but this seems like a convenient contrivance to implant a hidden difference that was never there to begin with.

 

[Noname Given]

He is out there. Whenever MU Lorca came to the prime universe, the prime lorca went somewhere else (MU I guess). So we will see this character for the full series run I am sure. They will find prime Lorca at some point.

Also, the MU Discovery is in the prime universe, they noted that in the first episode. They haven't explored that story yet.

Not necessarily - Like PU Georgu; PU Lorca could be dead (killed with his crew in the U.S.S. Buran incident.) There isn't allways a 1:1 correspondence of events.

I just want to correct something said here. Yes, Bryan Fuller worked on Voyager and co-created Discovery. However, his last story credit was episode 3, Choose Your Pain and he hasn't been involved since. The only other person on Discovery who had worked on Voyager is Joe Menosky. He had been credited as a Co-Executive Producer up until episode 6 or 7. After that, his name hasn't been in the credits anymore.

Further to the Menosky news, there seems to have been some replacements made to the producers and writers halfway through the season. Aron Eli Coleite and Jesse Alexander, the writers of episodes 4 and 7 are no longer in the credits. Neither is Kemp Powers, the writer of episode 5. Added to the credits is Jordan Nardino, the writer of tonight's episode. There might be more changes but those are the ones I noticed.

The inevitable tell-all book about the first season of Discovery will be a must-read.

You forgot one of the primary ST: D showrunners: Kristen Boyer - who, as I understand it is a HUGE ST:VOY fan; and has penned a lot of the ST:VOY novels. And if I'm not mistaken she's the one who on set told Jason Isaacs he could ad lib an expletive using 'God' because in GR's Star Trek Universe, religion is passed <--- Which is a clear indication that if she did watch TOS, she didn't pay a lot of attention to it, because not only did Doctor McCoy use a lot of religious exclaimations; they did have a Chapel on the 1701; were holding a Wedding ion said Chapel (in TOS - "Balance of Terror"); and actually had a couple of episodes with straight up religious themes.

So yeah, I still say, there's a lot of ST:VOY influence in ST: D and it's starting to show and have (IMO) a disappointing/somewhat negative effect one the resulting episodes of late.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Broadcast tv shows are typically around 42 minutes.

The length of Discovery episodes have been: 42, 38, 47, 49, 47, 44, 47, 40, 47, 48, 49, and 37.

So 8 of the 12 episodes have been longer than what they would have to be to be on broadcast television, and 4 have been shorter.

We can compare it to broadcast this and broadcast that all we want,

I feel they are trying to tell a really intricate story and not allotting enough time,

I think airing episodes between 38 and 49 minutes is just a smidge short, when they realistically should be more like, 48 to an hour, on the regular.

I think the problem is comparing it way too much to network broadcast television, just my personal opinion.