Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm assuming MU Lorca killed PU Lorca when he scuttled the ship

It's more likely PU Lorca went down WITH the ship and MU Lorca used the "I scuttled it!" excuse to explain how why he was still alive.

 

[eschaton]

If it were Voyager, Tyler would have just shown up on bridge the next episode and they would have all forgotten he was a Klingon.

or they would have had the doctor in the last 5 seconds of the same episode say "Ash will be fine I have some nanobots working on it"

And if it were DS9 they'd have another 3-4 standalone episodes over the next five seasons dealing with the aftermath.

Saying this clears the bar Voyager set is very, very faint praise. And I 100% agree that Discovery is better than Voyager.

 

[cbl1]

I would say it would have been cool them returning to PU post Nemesis with a fractured Federation. But their ship is not nearly advanced enough to not be destroyed in the first episode (with the shielding and armory upgrades we saw come to PU post-Voyager).

 

[Feron]

I gave it an 8. Really enjoyed it, but a 37 minute run time is disappointing and hopefully not something we see again. I also thought the Stamets/Culber stuff was rushed and forced. We needed to see more of their relationship than just a handful of episodes to make that really mean something. Would love to have seen that in a S4 or S5 after years of seeing their bond grow.

A few things: first, the fate of PU Lorca is probably undecided and entirely up to whether Isaacs wants to return either full time or in guest spots. I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about it since it’s probably dictated by creative license at this point.

As for Culber, it appears that he’s truly dead and not “coming back to life” so to speak. And I think that’s a good thing personally. I like the character and actor but to me deaths should mean something. But, I like the idea of the character not being a regular but perhaps popping in as a recurring guest star that serves as Stamets’ conscience whom he visits and continues his relationship with in the network.

They could actually go with something that could turn out to be rather stirring if done right, IMHO.

We now know that the network has been infected and is dying. Presumably PU Stamets will figure out how to save it, at least temporarily. But we also know that for canon purposes that the spore drive will need to be non-functioning by the time that TOS begins.

What if Stamets saves the network (temporarily), uses it on a regular basis to see his love, then MU Stamets starts using it to prepare a MU invasion of the PU and Stamets has to destroy his only connection to Culber in order to save the Federation?

 

[Krandor]

It's more likely PU Lorca went down WITH the ship and MU Lorca used the "I scuttled it!" excuse to explain how why he was still alive.

Yeah and at some point the buran's likely crossed dimentsions so PU Lorca is in MU and goes down with his ship. MU Lorca comes to Print on his Buran and escapes.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There's one way out that has been written into the show - recall the story of the Buran - Mirror!Lorca claimed he destroyed it to stop them being captured by Klingons. That leaves the story possibility that Prime!Lorca actually was, and that he still exists on some Klingon prison ship/planet (chance for a Rura Penthe fanservice ep!).

There's probably a real Ash Tyler out there too. I just realized that, judging from Ash's flashbacks, alot of what he's remembering is actually transferred memories as part of his overlaid personality; he's actually seeing HIMSELF from TYLER'S point of view during the memory transfer. This means that while Voq was surgically altered -- pretty extremely -- to look like Ash Tyler, there really IS a person named Ash Tyler whose memories and experience Voq is using as camouflage.

Real Lorca and Real Tyler probably wound up in the same cell. Or the same mass grave, depending on how this plays out.

 

[Nyotarules]

My prediction is they will never get back to the Prime universe. How on
Earth is Starfleet going to stop over 430 people from talking about it so that ten years later Kirk's crew end up there having no information about the place?
Or the crew will end up in the Prime universe because they never came from there in the first place. According to TOS the Klingon war ended when the Organians stepped in, there was no major galactic war before Errand of mercy

 

[Snarfies]

7 out of 10 from me this week. Solid episode, but a few things knock the score down:

1. 37 minutes? Really?
2. Way, way too much head exploding and blood for my liking.


My guess is it has something to do with the mycelial network being essentially, for the purposes of this story, omnipresent. It exists in all universes and timelines, and is not constrained by linear time itself. So I don't think he was necessarily the soul of Culber, but capable of both existing and not existing at the same time thanks to the network. So I do believe it's Stamets' Culber, just not in the same way as one would be a ghost or possess a soul.

A soul serious what is that. Basicly as a complex organisme you hope you have a Soul nothing more nothing less.

 

[Krandor]

There's probably a real Ash Tyler out there too. I just realized that, judging from Ash's flashbacks, alot of what he's remembering is actually transferred memories as part of his overlaid personality; he's actually seeing HIMSELF from TYLER'S point of view during the memory transfer. This means that while Voq was surgically altered -- pretty extremely -- to look like Ash Tyler, there really IS a person named Ash Tyler whose memories and experience Voq is using as camouflage.

There had to be. Otherwise somebody showing up and saying they were a starfleet office named ash tyler would have set off alarms when he isn't in the database. Using a cover of a real person would be much easier then trying to hack into federation computers and add a new officer.

 

[cbl1]

I'm thinking somehow MU Lorca gets to Buran through some experiments they are performing. Then the Klingons attack. PU Lorca is mortally wounded. He tells MU Lorca to continue on in his place as he pilots the ship into the Klingon cruiser. So effectively Loca scuttles the ship (piloting it) and saves himself (MU Lorca surviving) at the same time.

 

[eschaton]

DS9 did it so well with the rumours of the Dominion trickling in, then actually starting to explore the Gamma Quadrant and hearing more about the Dominion, then encountering the Dominion, then the tensions racketing up then the actual conflict breaking out.
Over seasons this took place and through it you learned to love the setting, the characters, the world and by the time the conflict breaks out the stakes are sky high.

The secret to good serialization is to not have much figured out ahead of time. Overplotted shows can come out as messes because the writers don't have the freedom to take up what works and run with it.

 

[Krandor]

The secret to good serialization is to not have much figured out ahead of time. Overplotted shows can come out as messes because the writers don't have the freedom to take up what works and run with it.

You need you overall story planned out in advance but you need to provide room and flexibility if things needs to be chaned around. The best show at doing this was Babylon 5. He had his 5 year plan worked out but he also had put in escape clauses for if actors left or what not and had other ways to get to where he wanted to be. One of the big changes was originally Sheridan wasn't supposed to leave after 1 season but it made sense to do so and moved that up in his timeline and I know there were several other times he had to adjust his original plan but it was set up in a way where he could if and when needed. .

 

[Donker]

My point is he never came to power. No German empire, no British empire, no Prussian empire, no Russian empire therefore no World war I as we know it since The Roman/Italians were running things since Caesar's era.

I mean, lets be honest, the Mirror Universe makes absolutely zero sense and is honestly just fanfiction.net tier fanwank. If the Roman Empire never fell, how did the same characters appear? How do the same ships appear? Why are the ships named "Enterprise", "Discovery" etc?

Butterfly effects are a real thing, change one small thing, and the entire thing come crumbling down, yet the Mirror Universe is a radically different earth with a radically different history yet all the same characters exist with the same names at basically the same times and place?

The Mirror Universe only works if you don't think about it at all. Discovery it's worked better than before because honestly, Discovery is a miserable grim show and the Mirror Universe fits that perfectly. I hope they wrap up the MU next episode, but I don't know whats worse at this point, being stuck in a Fascist nightmare or returning to the Klingon War story line.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

This closely sums it up for me. It's somewhat entertaining Sci-Fi, but in many ways seems Trek in name only. I continue to pay for the series, I pay my nickle - I watch, but can't shake the empty feeling at the end of the episodes - and I gave this one an 8 weighed only against the rest of the series, not the whole body of ST. I've been a fan since TOS, all the way through to the present. Each series has held a special place inside me and the love for the show has consistently been rooted in character development / relationships. I cared about those series characters. With every passing episode the reality that I most likely won't ever care for the characters in DSC disappoints me.

Very good summary of how I feel.

 

[XCV330]

Michelle Yeoh is awful and her scenes are painfully corny. In fact, much of this episode was once again unintentionally cornball. We've got the cast wearing ridiculous costumes, Georgiou is walking around with a sword and a magic boomerang that can slice through people's heads, and the show is taking itself completely seriously.

Too much magic in this episode also. (The same can be said for this show as a whole)

Star Trek has magic floorboards that can produce gravity without also making people one floor down fly up to the ceiling below when they jump. It also tends to nullify inertia most of the time, and when it fails, it only fails one one or two axis points.
They've been showing repulsor tech for so long, I can handle her magic throwing star. It actually kind of makes sense. Why don't Klingons have those?

Her performance was very camp but I think that's what they were looking for. She delivered it. I like the costuming.

 

[Nyotarules]

Also, is anyone else starting to wonder if maybe L'Rell will stay behind in the Mirrorverse and hook up with Mirror Voq?

She would have to get over her prejudice of Vulcans , Tellarites and disgusting Andorians lol

 

[Romulan_spy]

I have enjoyed Discovery so far, for the most part, because it is entertaining drama. But the MU plot is getting to be a bit much. There is only so much cold blooded killing, backstabbing, eating kelpians etc I can take in my Star Trek.

Discovery needs to remember Star Trek's original mission statement:
"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before".

I bolded the important part. Doing exciting drama and slapping "star Trek" in front, is not enough. Star Trek is not just about exciting or entertaining scifi but about exploring scifi ideas through the medium of strange worlds and strange aliens. Discovery would do well to remember this.

 

[cultcross]

There's probably a real Ash Tyler out there too. I just realized that, judging from Ash's flashbacks, alot of what he's remembering is actually transferred memories as part of his overlaid personality; he's actually seeing HIMSELF from TYLER'S point of view during the memory transfer. This means that while Voq was surgically altered -- pretty extremely -- to look like Ash Tyler, there really IS a person named Ash Tyler whose memories and experience Voq is using as camouflage.

Real Lorca and Real Tyler probably wound up in the same cell. Or the same mass grave, depending on how this plays out.

There had to be. Otherwise somebody showing up and saying they were a starfleet office named ash tyler would have set off alarms when he isn't in the database. Using a cover of a real person would be much easier then trying to hack into federation computers and add a new officer.

I rad that quite differently - that the being in Discovery's sickbay was both the real Tyler and the real Voq, the personality of the latter somehow surgically implanted on the former. That was how I understood the explanation from L'rell. What she then did was suppress/kill the Voq part.

to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before".

In fairness, the MU would certainly fall in that category.

The secret to good serialization is to not have much figured out ahead of time. Overplotted shows can come out as messes because the writers don't have the freedom to take up what works and run with it.

Can go the other way, though - look at 24. You can spot the exact minute in most seasons that the pre-planned part ran out.

 

[XCV330]

while we haven’t been told when the mirror Buran was destroyed, the Prime Buran was destroyed sometime between episode 2 and 3.

Based on Admiral Cornwall’s dialogue saying Lorca had been different since that incident, mirror Lorca probably showed up after it was destroyed. Hell I’d bet he’s the one who destroyed the Buran to get Prime Lorca out of the way

I would say he probably would take precautions to see his double dead, but there is always the matter that however much a survivor and however crafty MU Lorca is, his prime counterpart probably was/is as well. He might still be out there.

 

[137th Gebirg]

My theory is Mirror Lorca is the one who either destroyed the Buran blaiming the Klingons, or led the Klingons to destroy it. Or hell Mirror Lorca heard of the destruction of the Buran while hiding out somewhere and saw it as an opportunity to do something.

Either way, Prime Lorca is dead.

Admiral Cornwell said Lorca has been different ever since the destruction of the Buran. I think Prime Lorca died with the Buran and Mirror Lorca took his place, saying he survived.

My thoughts too. Either way, he definitely would have needed to be there to time the switch perfectly.